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EU opens probe of TikTok Lite, citing concerns about addictive design
- superkuh 3y ago[flagged]
- talldayo 3y agoThe DSM isn't necessarily a list of definitions of mental disorders, though. It was barely written in an age when people had smartphones in their pockets, and it's an example of scientific literature that has absolutely evolved over the last 50 years. It's a Procrustean tool for defining addictive habits.
- superkuh 3y agoYou (and others) are a bit confused. The DSM V (5) was published in May 18, 2013 and there have been updates. DSM-5-TR was published in 2022. This was after the above issue was explicitly looked into by a subpanel and found to be lacking in evidence.
- talldayo 3y agoUnless the subpanel was directly investigating TikTok's user experience, I'm not really sure if their study is relevant here. It would be overly broad to dismiss the EU's qualified claims because another study suggested that screens can't be addictive.
- superkuh 3y agoIt would not be overly broad. In fact, it's the opposite. The EU Internal Market has no expertise or knowledge regarding psychology and neuroscience. It is operating purely off non-peer reviewed feelings from their expertise in social media and business regulation. This is like, say, taking advice from a FCC official on mental health. A business major talking about biology.
- carabiner 3y agoThe dsm justified lobotomies and incarceration for black men who wanted civil rights. I think it's safe to say it's a lagging metric.
- talldayo 3y ago> This is like, say, taking advice from a FCC official on mental health. This is more like if the FCC demanded a company provide a risk-assessment for a blatantly harmful feature, didn't receive it, and took remediating action against the offending business: https://techcrunch.com/2024/04/17/byedance-rfi-tiktok-lite/ https://techcrunch.com/2024/04/17/byedance-rfi-tiktok-lite/
- abdullahkhalids 3y agoThe Facebook algorithmic news feed was introduced in Sep 2011 [1]. I recall it not being super addictive/"engagement inducing" in the first couple of years, because they hadn't figured it out yet. And Facebook was ahead of all other social media sites on this back then. I hardly think a 2013 document would have had access to enough data to say anything about the impacts of social media "addiction". 2022 is a different story. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed_(Facebook) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed_(Facebook)
- chpatrick 3y agoDSM V was published only 6 years after the first iPhone so I don't think that means anything. We're living in a very different world. It really seems to like scientism to me to claim that something doesn't exist if it's not listed in the big book. Smoking wasn't recognized to be unhealthy until the 1950s and 60s.
- mschuster91 3y ago> Very unscientific. The idea of addiction to a screen is unsupported in the scientific literature and unsupported in the DSM V or updates. Literally in the DSM the only behavioral "addiction" is the grandfathered in "gambling disorder" which you will note is a disorder, not addiction. DSM isn't exactly a bible and it shouldn't be treated as such. Being transgender was considered a disease for a looong time, even being gay in a time long past. On the other side it took very long time for autism, ADHD and friends to be added. And on top of that it wasn't even recognizing gender-specific differences, although that began to change a few years ago. ADHD for example can present way differently in girls vs boys, even very old diseases like heart attacks can have vastly different indicators between men and women. Valid medical judgements should allow to recognize recent developments, it is to be expected that DSM and its various national equivalents (e.g. insurance medical coding systems) sometimes lag significantly behind what is considered to be the gold standard of evidence-based medicine.
- ceccle 3y ago> Being transgender was considered a disease for a looong time If it's not a disease (or at least, associated with a disease state) then why does it require medical treatment in the form of hormone-modfying drugs, and surgeries?
- legitster 3y agoAddiction is pretty clearly described as a substance abuse - it would be pretty easy to classify as a "technological" substance abuse - of which scare tactics and treatments centers already exist.
- bilsbie 3y ago[flagged]
- sschueller 3y agoVery sus, especially the timing, where is the same claim regarding Instagram or Snapchat?
- sgift 3y agoDo Instagram and Snapchat pay you to view more content? This is specifically about TikTok Lite, which does this, not about "normal" TikTok.
- mtmail 3y agoWhat's suspicious about the timing? "ByeDance failed to do this before going ahead and launching TikTok Lite in the two EU markets" It's after launching the (new) app and after EU started enforcing the Digital Markets Act.
- isodev 3y agoThings are moving on their level as well https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/news/commission-sends-requests-information-meta-and-snap-under-digital-services-act https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/news/commission-sen...
- legitster 3y agoI think everyone scratching at their throats and arguing "I'm not addicted - YOU'RE addicted to X" might be missing the forest for the trees. It seems very plausible to me that there has been a Rubicon passed that has to be grappled with. There was an order of magnitude difference between opium and the development of heroin. Or tobacco and the cigarette. TikTok did not invent the addictive parasocial content scroll. But it might represent a new concentration where we might really start grappling with the reality of what is happening to our brains when we use these services.
- isodev 3y agoWell, I’m happy we’re finally getting to the “and find out” part of the game. I love the idea of algorithmic transparency in general. If a platform is appealing to people’s emotions then it must be transparent.
- riedel 3y agoBet HN will be next once they understand the addictive design patterns of the website.
- whycome 3y agoI can't tell if you're using X as a variable or actually referring to X.com/twitter.
- Avtomatk 3y agoAnd what about facebook, twitter, instagram, youtube... NATO are losing their control in propaganda and they are afraid because they cannot spread its disinformation through tiktok.. This is not a justification to adictive social media but their hypocrisy is unhideable
- aeurielesn 3y agoYou should really read the article first next time, not just the headline.
- Avtomatk 3y agoI have read the entire article, I don't understand your point.
- aeurielesn 3y agoIf you had read it, you would know it has nothing to do with content moderation but with the rewards-based activity system.
- icepat 3y agoNATO has nothing to do with technology regulation.
- Avtomatk 3y agoIf you don't understand geopolitics, then no
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- mrweasel 3y agoI'm a little disappointed about this probe. They are concerned that paying users points could be an addictive design, which seems like it's not, it's work, in a sense. They would not need the points if the design is addictive. If anything they should look into the general doom scrolling design of Instagram, Snapchat, Tiktok and YouTube Shorts. All of these have addictive design patterns, without any sort of payoff. Maybe TikTok Lite is just the initial probe, where they seem more certain of getting the desired outcome, as it can be massaged to piggy back on the EU ban on loot crated. If that probe is then successful, they could then more easily go after other platforms which works like TikTok Lite and then just claim that the payments is an implementation detail. In any case I'd like to see the EU consider bans or restriction on platforms that pray on human psychology, stealing users attention for hours a day, only to attempt to push ads for questionable products. I surprises me that anyone willingly work on product like TikTok or YouTube Shorts.
- kmlx 3y ago> Commenting on the Commission’s enforcement action in a statement, Thierry Breton, the commissioner for the EU Internal Market, wrote: “… We suspect TikTok ‘Lite’ could be as toxic and addictive as cigarettes ‘light’. Unless TikTok provides compelling proof of its safety, which it has failed to do until now, we stand ready to trigger DSA interim measures including the suspension of TikTok Lite feature which we suspect could generate addiction. We will spare no effort to protect our children.” can someone please think of the children? a bit more seriously: 1. are there any studies into the harms of cigarettes vs harms of tiktok lite/social media? 2. does the DSA’s “risk assessment” cover risks to EU users only or EU businesses as well? 3. are there any steps taken to make sure we won’t have politicians abuse the DSA to target unfriendly companies? specifically forbidding of micro managing various features and products by the politicians of the day? or is the DSA exactly this?
- blackeyeblitzar 3y agoI don’t understand why things like design are being discussed or debated. All these countries are wasting time on minor things instead of just doing what is needed, which is an outright ban. So far, only India has got this right. All Chinese linked social media apps should be banned due to risks to user privacy, national security, and lack of reciprocal market access. This ban should also apply to apps headquartered outside of China (like the US or EU) that have leadership with Chinese citizenry (not ethnicity but nationality). In the case of TikTok, divestment is not enough to guarantee anything - after all they allegedly lied under oath about where US data is stored: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandralevine/2023/06/21/tiktok-confirms-data-china-bytedance-security-cfius/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandralevine/2023/06/21/tikt... So what will divestment accomplish? What if key leaders or employees can be influenced or blackmailed by the CCP to do unethical things like sharing data or running algorithmic propaganda campaigns or whatever?
- jocoda 3y agoOne of the issues seems to be about the TikTok Lite app's potential mental health risks. How does one even quantify that? And by who's measure?
- recursivedoubts 3y agoThis has nothing to do with the technology. Everyone knows that social media is addictive, manipulative & bad for peoples mental health. TikTok is no worse than fb, instagram, twitter or youtube (which is aping it) etc. This is about who owns it: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/14/steve-mnuchin-tiktok-00146966 https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/14/steve-mnuchin-tikto...