5 ms·

Another detail not mentioned here is that even carts which didn't contain enhancement chips had different levels of performance - the SNES CPU nominally ran at

Another detail not mentioned here is that even carts which didn't contain enhancement chips had different levels of performance - the SNES CPU nominally ran at 3.58mhz, but it would only actually run at that speed with a "FastROM" cart inserted. Nintendo also offered publishers a "SlowROM" cart format, which was cheaper, but would downclock the CPU to just 2.68mhz. There is a community of modders developing patches to turn SlowROM games into FastROM games to alleviate slowdown. I read somewhere that some SlowROM games appear to have been developed for FastROM in the first place, but were converted to SlowROM at the last minute due to penny-pinching demands by the publisher.

easyThrowaway 3y ago
Always wondered if that was just an arbitrary licensing distinction made up by nintendo or there were actual differences between carts data reading speeds. At the end of the day, all SNES carts sported mask roms.
- MBCook 3y ago
  At various points it was very hard to get ROM made due to shortages. It may have been an attempted solution to that, can’t get fast but you could have slow.
GaggiX 3y ago
The article does mention LoRom and HiRom, I imagine you're talking about the same thing.
- jsheard 3y ago
  No that's something else, LoROM and HiROM differ in how the ROM data is mapped into memory, while FastROM and SlowROM differ in the bus speed. You can have Lo/Slow, Lo/Fast, Hi/Slow or Hi/Fast carts.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- mmaniac 3y ago
  They're related but not the same. This wiki page explains LoROM and HiROM; FastROM is explained by this sentence. > Different address ranges are accessed at different speeds, and the speed of the ROM at banks $80-$FF may be changed with register $420D. https://snes.nesdev.org/wiki/Memory_map https://snes.nesdev.org/wiki/Memory_map
remlov 3y ago
https://www.timeextension.com/guides/snes-fastrom-games-how-hackers-are-supercharging-your-super-nintendo https://www.timeextension.com/guides/snes-fastrom-games-how-...
beeboobaa3 3y ago
Was there any hardware reason for this, or was this just nintendo making gamers' lifes worse by gouging their customers?
- jsheard 3y ago
  Ostensibly the reason is that the ROM chips have to run in lockstep with the CPU clock, so the CPU may need to be downclocked if cheaper ROM chips can't keep up with it, but I don't know what the actual cost difference would have been at the time, if any. Maybe all of the chips were capable of 3.58mhz and Nintendo was just gouging.
- masklinn 3y ago
  The ROM chips were literally lower specced / worse tolerances, and thus cheaper. FastROM chips were guaranteed (by the manufacturers) to yield stable results in under 120ns, versus 200 for SlowROM.
  - sumtechguy 3y ago
    Interesting. Having not looked at all yet. Wonder if the emulators out there take this fact into account.
    - wk_end 3y ago
      SNES emulation is extremely accurate at this point - any modern/reasonably competent emulator handles this correctly. Shoutout to Near (RIP) here - they wrote an article on Ars which documents how we've reached this point. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-...
      - progmetaldev 3y ago
        On top of this, most emulators allow you to run the game at faster speeds than the original. I haven't encountered a game yet where I wanted to do this, but the fact that it's available just shows how far emulation has come (and the wizardry that is involved in emulating an entire computer system).
whaleofatw2022 3y ago
Out Of This World is a case of SlowROM/FastROM where the dev was not allowed to use FastROM. Iirc they claimed it saved a whopping 50 cents a cartridge to use slowrom in that case.
- ISL 3y ago
  I don't know how much the publisher made in revenue from each cartridge. $0.50 might have been 5% of revenue?
  - ragestorm 3y ago
    Probably. For a game selling at 60$ assuming Nintendo took half and publisher took other half in profit, its 1.6%. Still significant as the publisher has other costs.
nicole_express 3y ago
The thing that blows my mind about the SNES is that even its onboard RAM can't be accessed at the nominal 3.58MHz clock; the system slows down for that. Always confused me why the SNES was so paltry with its speed when the competitor TurboGrafx-16 usually ran at 7MHz, and also had a 6502-family CPU that required similar memory timing. But the TurboGrafx flopped (in the west) and the SNES was a hit world-wide, so I guess they did something right.
- MisterTea 3y ago
  > But the TurboGrafx flopped (in the west) and the SNES was a hit world-wide, so I guess they did something right. Still have all my old consoles including the Turbo Graphics 16 and SNES. It was all about the software. Mind you this was during a time when games were $50 each which today is something like $100. If you wanted to sample a game you hoped a friend had it so you could borrow or the local video store had it to rent. If not it was a crap shoot and game review magazines were a staple. TG16 had nothing to compete. I only remember the popular side-scrollers like Bonks Adventure or Splatter House. The rest were "weird" games no one was interested in. We had about 7 or 8 games before we gave up on it. I had I think one other friend who had one who also gave up on it with just a few titles.
  - progmetaldev 3y ago
    I definitely lucked out on my dad being in touch with the technology at the time. I was ready to get a TurboGrafx 16 just for Bonk's Adventure, and I definitely would have missed out over that purchase. The SNES was so popular, that I had many friends that were willing to trade games with me, so we were able to experience new games without the stiff price of having to purchase everything played. One of the things gaming companies made sure to kill off as things turned to fully digital. I still want to play all of the Splatter House titles, though. I didn't find out about those until I was older, but I've watched plenty of walkthroughs of the various iterations, and it looks like the perfect amount of strategy, gore, and need for proper timing to master.
  - ssl-3 3y ago
    I personally think that Devil's Crush represents the very best of video pinball, and that's a TG16 exclusive. There was a time around the turn of the century when some friends and I shared some studio space, wherein we had a long-lasting (years!) high-score competition for that game. (Scores had to be witnessed, and were then written on the wall by the door.)

easyThrowaway 3y ago

Always wondered if that was just an arbitrary licensing distinction made up by nintendo or there were actual differences between carts data reading speeds. At the end of the day, all SNES carts sported mask roms.

MBCook 3y ago
At various points it was very hard to get ROM made due to shortages. It may have been an attempted solution to that, can’t get fast but you could have slow.

GaggiX 3y ago

The article does mention LoRom and HiRom, I imagine you're talking about the same thing.

jsheard 3y ago
No that's something else, LoROM and HiROM differ in how the ROM data is mapped into memory, while FastROM and SlowROM differ in the bus speed. You can have Lo/Slow, Lo/Fast, Hi/Slow or Hi/Fast carts.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
mmaniac 3y ago
They're related but not the same. This wiki page explains LoROM and HiROM; FastROM is explained by this sentence. > Different address ranges are accessed at different speeds, and the speed of the ROM at banks $80-$FF may be changed with register $420D. https://snes.nesdev.org/wiki/Memory_map https://snes.nesdev.org/wiki/Memory_map

remlov 3y ago

https://www.timeextension.com/guides/snes-fastrom-games-how-hackers-are-supercharging-your-super-nintendo https://www.timeextension.com/guides/snes-fastrom-games-how-...

beeboobaa3 3y ago

Was there any hardware reason for this, or was this just nintendo making gamers' lifes worse by gouging their customers?

jsheard 3y ago
Ostensibly the reason is that the ROM chips have to run in lockstep with the CPU clock, so the CPU may need to be downclocked if cheaper ROM chips can't keep up with it, but I don't know what the actual cost difference would have been at the time, if any. Maybe all of the chips were capable of 3.58mhz and Nintendo was just gouging.
masklinn 3y ago
The ROM chips were literally lower specced / worse tolerances, and thus cheaper. FastROM chips were guaranteed (by the manufacturers) to yield stable results in under 120ns, versus 200 for SlowROM.
- sumtechguy 3y ago
  Interesting. Having not looked at all yet. Wonder if the emulators out there take this fact into account.
  - wk_end 3y ago
    SNES emulation is extremely accurate at this point - any modern/reasonably competent emulator handles this correctly. Shoutout to Near (RIP) here - they wrote an article on Ars which documents how we've reached this point. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-...
    - progmetaldev 3y ago
      On top of this, most emulators allow you to run the game at faster speeds than the original. I haven't encountered a game yet where I wanted to do this, but the fact that it's available just shows how far emulation has come (and the wizardry that is involved in emulating an entire computer system).

whaleofatw2022 3y ago

Out Of This World is a case of SlowROM/FastROM where the dev was not allowed to use FastROM. Iirc they claimed it saved a whopping 50 cents a cartridge to use slowrom in that case.

ISL 3y ago
I don't know how much the publisher made in revenue from each cartridge. $0.50 might have been 5% of revenue?
- ragestorm 3y ago
  Probably. For a game selling at 60$ assuming Nintendo took half and publisher took other half in profit, its 1.6%. Still significant as the publisher has other costs.

nicole_express 3y ago

The thing that blows my mind about the SNES is that even its onboard RAM can't be accessed at the nominal 3.58MHz clock; the system slows down for that. Always confused me why the SNES was so paltry with its speed when the competitor TurboGrafx-16 usually ran at 7MHz, and also had a 6502-family CPU that required similar memory timing. But the TurboGrafx flopped (in the west) and the SNES was a hit world-wide, so I guess they did something right.

MisterTea 3y ago
> But the TurboGrafx flopped (in the west) and the SNES was a hit world-wide, so I guess they did something right. Still have all my old consoles including the Turbo Graphics 16 and SNES. It was all about the software. Mind you this was during a time when games were $50 each which today is something like $100. If you wanted to sample a game you hoped a friend had it so you could borrow or the local video store had it to rent. If not it was a crap shoot and game review magazines were a staple. TG16 had nothing to compete. I only remember the popular side-scrollers like Bonks Adventure or Splatter House. The rest were "weird" games no one was interested in. We had about 7 or 8 games before we gave up on it. I had I think one other friend who had one who also gave up on it with just a few titles.
- progmetaldev 3y ago
  I definitely lucked out on my dad being in touch with the technology at the time. I was ready to get a TurboGrafx 16 just for Bonk's Adventure, and I definitely would have missed out over that purchase. The SNES was so popular, that I had many friends that were willing to trade games with me, so we were able to experience new games without the stiff price of having to purchase everything played. One of the things gaming companies made sure to kill off as things turned to fully digital. I still want to play all of the Splatter House titles, though. I didn't find out about those until I was older, but I've watched plenty of walkthroughs of the various iterations, and it looks like the perfect amount of strategy, gore, and need for proper timing to master.
- ssl-3 3y ago
  I personally think that Devil's Crush represents the very best of video pinball, and that's a TG16 exclusive. There was a time around the turn of the century when some friends and I shared some studio space, wherein we had a long-lasting (years!) high-score competition for that game. (Scores had to be witnessed, and were then written on the wall by the door.)