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The thing I find offensive is expecting these people to be providing 4.9 level customer service when they’re getting nowhere near commensurate pay. Imagine if

The thing I find offensive is expecting these people to be providing 4.9 level customer service when they’re getting nowhere near commensurate pay. Imagine if software devs got a star rating for every new commit, rated on how long it took compared to how many points on the ticket (which someone else decides). And if your rating drops too low you stop getting tickets (and stop getting paid). And your salary sucks to begin with.

chii 2y ago
if there was an objective way to value the quality of a commit, rather than how long it took, then yes, this method of rating would work. The length of time is not proportionally related to the quality (it's not even inversely proportional - i think there's no relationship between time taken to do a commit and its quality).
- zztop44 2y ago
  Do you really think it’s impossible for a manager to rate a commit or completed ticket (including taking into consideration how long it took vs how long they think it should have taken). I don’t think many software developers would want to work under such a system. Yet we build them for other people.
  - chii 2y ago
    > Do you really think it’s impossible for a manager to rate a commit if the manager is able to know how long something would've taken, it is because the task is simple and already well specified. Therefore, the work will be similar to delivery analogy from the OP. I do believe some places (such as oracle) do this sort of rating (heard from the grapevines). However, most work i find that require a developer isn't simple tasks, but complex cognitive thinking to come up with a solution. I dont believe a rating system works for such work. Peer judgement, as well as long term results (such as a stable, working system that expands as required in a timely manner) work much better. But by the time the long term comes, the developer's contributions would've been diluted if the team expands massively due to success, or have moved on!
    - simiones 2y ago
      You are misunderstanding. They are not suggesting this would be a good or objective system. The problem is that ratings for drivers/deliveries/restaurants are just as arbitrary as this. I have seen people give 1 star reviews to a restaurant saying that the food was extraordinary but the waiter told them that it is possible to tip by card without them asking.
ta1243 2y ago
I have no idea what "4.9 level" means. When I used to use uber (before it stopped working reliably in the UK about 5 years ago) they would ask me "how many stars" on a range of 1-5. There was no indication of what this meant or how to judge it. Presumably the idea is that the star ratings are relative and follow a normal distribution, so most are in the middle (say about 70% between 2/could be better and 4/really good, with about 15% being 5/excellent and 15% being 1 terrible.
- iainmerrick 2y ago
  The ratings actually mean: 5 stars = OK, 1-4 stars = bad. Yes, it's a bad system.
  - ta1243 2y ago
    Which isn't explained on various systems. Feels to me that if you want that rating system applied consistently you need to only ask one question -- "Was the service acceptable Yes/No". If more than 50% of your replies are "this service was above average", then you have a meaningless system.
    - iainmerrick 2y ago
      It's a bad system, but pretty much every other online rating system is uncalibrated too (they just have different social expectations than the "always give 5 stars" that most people use for taxis and deliveries). There are plenty of things that could be done, like using the algorithm that was developed for Netflix's prize contest, but nobody seems to be doing them.
    - nurple 2y ago
      A lot of the same topics in this thread sound similar to when Netflix changed their star system to a binary good/bad, and why. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13893672 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13893672
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
      No system built for a society that (sometimes) values kindness over honesty will ever give you honest answers. My wife still wants to leave big tips when the service is lousy "they're counting on it to be able to make rent". With stars or similar ratings systems, even cheapskates can be kind. Have you ever seen a thread where someone starts talking about "brutal honesty", and how people react to that term? >If more than 50% of your replies are "this service was above average", then you have a meaningless system. Only true mathematically if ratings are for internal comparison only. It could be that the service at restaurant A is consistently above average, because the service at restaurant B is consistently below average. Only their aggregate ratings should show it split half and half.
mancerayder 2y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/12/nyregion/nyc-delivery-workers-minimum-wage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/12/nyregion/nyc-delivery-wor... 17 an hr plus tips isn't the end of the world? If I give less stars to a restaurant due to my food arriving cold, that's not reflected on the driver? At least on Seamless/Grubhub as far as I know.
infecto 2y ago
The thing I find offensive is people defending a group of workers that do not have to work as a gig worker. I think most people would consider 4.9 service as nothing special and just the due course of delivering food, on time, not opening and eating my food, putting it somewhere accessible. We are not talking about a 3 start dining experience. If they are not making enough money to provide the minimum level of service for delivering food then they should do something else. That is the problem with gig work though. A lot of it is self-filtering, I will see people doing deliveries/uber rides in high-value vehicles or massive gas guzzlers like trucks. A rational actor would realize this is probably below minimum wage when you account for all the extra costs which leaves you with the rest of the pool of potential gig workers that are not doing the math.
rpdillon 2y ago
> Imagine if software devs got a star rating for every new commit, rated on how long it took compared to how many points on the ticket (which someone else decides). And if your rating drops too low you stop getting tickets (and stop getting paid). And your salary sucks to begin with. This is the app store, more or less.

chii 2y ago

if there was an objective way to value the quality of a commit, rather than how long it took, then yes, this method of rating would work. The length of time is not proportionally related to the quality (it's not even inversely proportional - i think there's no relationship between time taken to do a commit and its quality).

zztop44 2y ago
Do you really think it’s impossible for a manager to rate a commit or completed ticket (including taking into consideration how long it took vs how long they think it should have taken). I don’t think many software developers would want to work under such a system. Yet we build them for other people.
- chii 2y ago
  > Do you really think it’s impossible for a manager to rate a commit if the manager is able to know how long something would've taken, it is because the task is simple and already well specified. Therefore, the work will be similar to delivery analogy from the OP. I do believe some places (such as oracle) do this sort of rating (heard from the grapevines). However, most work i find that require a developer isn't simple tasks, but complex cognitive thinking to come up with a solution. I dont believe a rating system works for such work. Peer judgement, as well as long term results (such as a stable, working system that expands as required in a timely manner) work much better. But by the time the long term comes, the developer's contributions would've been diluted if the team expands massively due to success, or have moved on!
  - simiones 2y ago
    You are misunderstanding. They are not suggesting this would be a good or objective system. The problem is that ratings for drivers/deliveries/restaurants are just as arbitrary as this. I have seen people give 1 star reviews to a restaurant saying that the food was extraordinary but the waiter told them that it is possible to tip by card without them asking.

ta1243 2y ago

I have no idea what "4.9 level" means. When I used to use uber (before it stopped working reliably in the UK about 5 years ago) they would ask me "how many stars" on a range of 1-5. There was no indication of what this meant or how to judge it. Presumably the idea is that the star ratings are relative and follow a normal distribution, so most are in the middle (say about 70% between 2/could be better and 4/really good, with about 15% being 5/excellent and 15% being 1 terrible.

iainmerrick 2y ago
The ratings actually mean: 5 stars = OK, 1-4 stars = bad. Yes, it's a bad system.
- ta1243 2y ago
  Which isn't explained on various systems. Feels to me that if you want that rating system applied consistently you need to only ask one question -- "Was the service acceptable Yes/No". If more than 50% of your replies are "this service was above average", then you have a meaningless system.
  - iainmerrick 2y ago
    It's a bad system, but pretty much every other online rating system is uncalibrated too (they just have different social expectations than the "always give 5 stars" that most people use for taxis and deliveries). There are plenty of things that could be done, like using the algorithm that was developed for Netflix's prize contest, but nobody seems to be doing them.
  - nurple 2y ago
    A lot of the same topics in this thread sound similar to when Netflix changed their star system to a binary good/bad, and why. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13893672 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13893672
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
    No system built for a society that (sometimes) values kindness over honesty will ever give you honest answers. My wife still wants to leave big tips when the service is lousy "they're counting on it to be able to make rent". With stars or similar ratings systems, even cheapskates can be kind. Have you ever seen a thread where someone starts talking about "brutal honesty", and how people react to that term? >If more than 50% of your replies are "this service was above average", then you have a meaningless system. Only true mathematically if ratings are for internal comparison only. It could be that the service at restaurant A is consistently above average, because the service at restaurant B is consistently below average. Only their aggregate ratings should show it split half and half.

mancerayder 2y ago

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/12/nyregion/nyc-delivery-workers-minimum-wage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/12/nyregion/nyc-delivery-wor... 17 an hr plus tips isn't the end of the world? If I give less stars to a restaurant due to my food arriving cold, that's not reflected on the driver? At least on Seamless/Grubhub as far as I know.

infecto 2y ago

The thing I find offensive is people defending a group of workers that do not have to work as a gig worker. I think most people would consider 4.9 service as nothing special and just the due course of delivering food, on time, not opening and eating my food, putting it somewhere accessible. We are not talking about a 3 start dining experience. If they are not making enough money to provide the minimum level of service for delivering food then they should do something else. That is the problem with gig work though. A lot of it is self-filtering, I will see people doing deliveries/uber rides in high-value vehicles or massive gas guzzlers like trucks. A rational actor would realize this is probably below minimum wage when you account for all the extra costs which leaves you with the rest of the pool of potential gig workers that are not doing the math.

rpdillon 2y ago

> Imagine if software devs got a star rating for every new commit, rated on how long it took compared to how many points on the ticket (which someone else decides). And if your rating drops too low you stop getting tickets (and stop getting paid). And your salary sucks to begin with. This is the app store, more or less.