4 ms·

I blame the crushing anxiety of a bleak economic outlook personally

rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 3y ago
I don't understand this thinking, civilization has never been richer. With the advancements we had in the last 150 years in tech/medicine/etc it's never been so easier to live and enjoy life. Even a poor person in my lousy eastern europe country lives so much better than kings lived 150 years ago. Where does this anxiety comes from?
- wccrawford 3y ago
  From the media. Even if there's nothing objectively bad to worry about, the media is compelled to find something that people would rather watch than other channels. They "spin" things or invent them wholesale, just to maintain their paychecks. We have it better than ever before in basically everything. But the media can't just report that, they have to find things that "need" improving and present them as dire straits. Children, since they haven't learned to filter it out yet, feel that as soul-crushing dread. And since it's nothing they can do anything about, they feel helpless.
  - KerrAvon 3y ago
    That’s not the whole picture. Most of western civilization is in severe danger of collapsing into fascist dictatorships or being taken over by same, egged on by truly deranged billionaires who somehow don’t think it will negatively affect them. Antivax hysteria is bringing back mid-20th century disease. Climate change appears to be accelerating on the worst-case side. Militarized police departments. Racial injustice has always been with us in the USA, but now it’s been made visible to everyone, and it’s very clear that some people — who were supposed to be the good guys — not only don’t care, but actively support it. Multiple state governments are now encouraging book banning and child labor. Do we need to mention women’s healthcare? And you, old person, are saying “you have it better than I had it in 1970’s jfc” — that’s true for some values of “you” and “I”, but you’re completely missing the point.
  - beepbooptheory 3y ago
    If the economy is so strong, why does the media need to resort to such desperate measures for attention? Like, shouldn't they also be reaping profits and such from the healthy economy, and as such not have to be forced into this grubby practice of manufacturing dissatisfaction?
    - fincycaden 3y ago
      What a strange argument. No matter the economical situation, companies will still want to maximize profits. In the case of the media, drawing the most attention, which results in depressing doomsaying, regardless of reality
      - beepbooptheory 3y ago
        So are you saying that, no matter what, the media will always have this tendency? Like we are doomed as humanity to be forever ill informed and drawn towards pessimism? If that is so, then why even complain or feel bad about this stuff? Like all this discourse feels pretty futile if you don't even believe a different state of affairs is possible...
        wccrawford 3y ago
        It will have that tendency, unless something else corrects for that behavior, such as people constantly calling them out on it. Crime will always exist, too, but we don't stop fighting that, either. It's part of life that we fight against bad things, even if we can't possibly eliminate that bad thing permanently. On the brighter side of things, the internet has provided people to more information than ever before, and cell phones have put that information in their pocket. People can and do look up things all the time and inform themselves.
        beepbooptheory 3y ago
        If you truly believe this is the situation, I just don't understand how you can also think that constantly calling them out does anything at all. Its not doing much right now at least. All you end up doing from this point of view is reinforce the very pessimism you are arguing against by posing this entire aspect of our society as forever broken Also, is it not "the media" anymore when I inform myself on the internet? Where is the line there?
- hackerlight 3y ago
  Housing costs. Aside from housing, Gen Z are materially better off in every other way. They earn higher real incomes than previous generations at the same stage in their life.
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  Being a poor urban worker in modern day has a lot of advantages over being a subsistence farmer in a community of 90% subsistence farmers in history. And yet, it has a lot of disadvantages and existential dread as well.
maxerickson 3y ago
Why do they have a bleak outlook? The broader economy is strong, and their long term employment prospects are excellent, with many people leaving the workforce and productivity gains increasing overall wealth.
- ajmurmann 3y ago
  The negative economic sentiment is very common and IMO entirely manufactured because it sells. Actual economic data is excellent. It kinda makes Haidt's point. Traditional media clearly isn't helping either though.
  - maxerickson 3y ago
    I can see being concerned about the spiraling cost of housing, but that's a problem with a relatively straightforward solution.
    - ajmurmann 3y ago
      Housing is definitely an issue. The obvious solution to that are probably my biggest policy issue. That said, homeownership rates in the US are close to an all-time high.
    - readyman 3y ago
      And it's a problem that predominates literally every other aspect of one's life, and one's children's lives. Discussing it as though it's just one little exception is not just out of touch; it's practically insanity.
  - readyman 3y ago
    GDP is not a meaningful measurement unless you somehow believe in nonsense trickle-down economics of the most extreme degree.
    - verteu 3y ago
      But inflation-adjusted median & 10th percentile wages have grown L20yrs, (per my other comment in the thread), right?
bluescrn 3y ago
In my teenage years, I couldn't care less about 'economic outlook'. Because I rarely paid much attention to the news, and when I did, it was usually fairly balanced BBC content, not hyper-partisan hyperbole/clickbait. Teenagers should be more focused on discovering their hobbies and interests alongside their education, finding some positive goals for their lives. But social media is telling them that WW3/climate-pocalypse/Trumpageddon is coming within months/years. They'll either be thinking 'why bother?' or 'we need a revolution!'. Neither of which are good for them.
- readyman 3y ago
  You obviously didn't grow up poor, because if you did you'd realize how impossible that is to do when you are. Your parents are working 2 or 3 jobs and won't be home until you're almost asleep so you have to take the bus home; no afterschool activities or time with friends. That one thing alone selects the friends you can choose from. The well-to-do kids all hang out with each other because they have parental support that puts them in healthy environments they can relate to. You're speaking from a place with a lot of privilege.
verteu 3y ago
Is this economic pessimism supported by data? Online, I see lots of complaints about rent burden, but it barely increased from 25%->27% from 2001-2024 [a]. Median wages are growing faster than inflation, too. The easiest numbers to pull up are Wolfram Alpha's [1]: CPI (2001-2022): +68% (+2.5%/yr) Median wage (2001-2022): $27060 -> $46310 (2.6%/yr) Mean wage (2001-2022): $34020 -> $61900 (2.9%/yr) Bottom 10% wage (2001-2022): $14070 -> $27340 (3.2%/yr) I think there was a temporary spike in rent burden [2] [3] which quickly reversed [4]. It generated lots of headlines, but nobody paid attention to the decline. [a] https://cre.moodysanalytics.com//app/uploads/2024/02/image-1.png https://cre.moodysanalytics.com//app/uploads/2024/02/image-1... , from [4] [1] eg: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=median+US+wage+2022 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=median+US+wage+2022 [2] https://www.moodysanalytics.com/about-us/press-releases/2023-5-16-moodys-analytics-ninty-one-percent-decline-us-metros https://www.moodysanalytics.com/about-us/press-releases/2023... [3] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DP04ACS006037 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DP04ACS006037 [4] https://cre.moodysanalytics.com/insights/market-insights/q4-2023-housing-affordability-update-rent-burden-lightened-for-median-us-households-last-year-but-not-everyone-felt-the-relief/ https://cre.moodysanalytics.com/insights/market-insights/q4-... EDIT: A commenter below led me to the following stat: 32% of American adults can't afford a $500 expense with their savings (Table 12): https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2023-economic-well-being-of-us-households-in-2022-expenses.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2023-economic-we...
- unclebucknasty 3y ago
  Good info. Yeah I think a lot of the grief centers on housing costs and, most acutely, consumer inflation. What's mysterious about the inflation to me is that there's very little discussion exploring an inflation rationale that links it to record corporate profits and a record raging bull market. That lack of emphasis reads political to me. The people being most harmed by increased consumer prices are generally not the ones who are most benefiting from them.
  - verteu 3y ago
    "When workers get pay increases, they think it's their own work; when they see inflation, they think that's bad policy" - Dean Baker I think both wages & prices around the time of covid, and it's easy to manufacture dissent over this (due to the above quote).
unclebucknasty 3y ago
As the parent of kids spanning an age range through imminent high-school graduate, I can assure you there's not much thought given to a "bleak economic outlook" among my kids or their peers. Now, it's possible—probably likely—that I'm in an economic bubble, but these same kids do suffer from other anxieties and would likely fit the studies.
bogtog 3y ago
I've interpreted this argument as a type of cope from leftist types who want to use their phones a bunch and not feel guilty (or alternatively, they have no opinion about phones and just want to use this as a springboard for a political jab)

I don't understand this thinking, civilization has never been richer. With the advancements we had in the last 150 years in tech/medicine/etc it's never been so easier to live and enjoy life. Even a poor person in my lousy eastern europe country lives so much better than kings lived 150 years ago. Where does this anxiety comes from?

wccrawford 3y ago
From the media. Even if there's nothing objectively bad to worry about, the media is compelled to find something that people would rather watch than other channels. They "spin" things or invent them wholesale, just to maintain their paychecks. We have it better than ever before in basically everything. But the media can't just report that, they have to find things that "need" improving and present them as dire straits. Children, since they haven't learned to filter it out yet, feel that as soul-crushing dread. And since it's nothing they can do anything about, they feel helpless.
- KerrAvon 3y ago
  That’s not the whole picture. Most of western civilization is in severe danger of collapsing into fascist dictatorships or being taken over by same, egged on by truly deranged billionaires who somehow don’t think it will negatively affect them. Antivax hysteria is bringing back mid-20th century disease. Climate change appears to be accelerating on the worst-case side. Militarized police departments. Racial injustice has always been with us in the USA, but now it’s been made visible to everyone, and it’s very clear that some people — who were supposed to be the good guys — not only don’t care, but actively support it. Multiple state governments are now encouraging book banning and child labor. Do we need to mention women’s healthcare? And you, old person, are saying “you have it better than I had it in 1970’s jfc” — that’s true for some values of “you” and “I”, but you’re completely missing the point.
- beepbooptheory 3y ago
  If the economy is so strong, why does the media need to resort to such desperate measures for attention? Like, shouldn't they also be reaping profits and such from the healthy economy, and as such not have to be forced into this grubby practice of manufacturing dissatisfaction?
  - fincycaden 3y ago
    What a strange argument. No matter the economical situation, companies will still want to maximize profits. In the case of the media, drawing the most attention, which results in depressing doomsaying, regardless of reality
    - beepbooptheory 3y ago
      So are you saying that, no matter what, the media will always have this tendency? Like we are doomed as humanity to be forever ill informed and drawn towards pessimism? If that is so, then why even complain or feel bad about this stuff? Like all this discourse feels pretty futile if you don't even believe a different state of affairs is possible...
      - wccrawford 3y ago
        It will have that tendency, unless something else corrects for that behavior, such as people constantly calling them out on it. Crime will always exist, too, but we don't stop fighting that, either. It's part of life that we fight against bad things, even if we can't possibly eliminate that bad thing permanently. On the brighter side of things, the internet has provided people to more information than ever before, and cell phones have put that information in their pocket. People can and do look up things all the time and inform themselves.
        beepbooptheory 3y ago
        If you truly believe this is the situation, I just don't understand how you can also think that constantly calling them out does anything at all. Its not doing much right now at least. All you end up doing from this point of view is reinforce the very pessimism you are arguing against by posing this entire aspect of our society as forever broken Also, is it not "the media" anymore when I inform myself on the internet? Where is the line there?
hackerlight 3y ago
Housing costs. Aside from housing, Gen Z are materially better off in every other way. They earn higher real incomes than previous generations at the same stage in their life.
jncfhnb 3y ago
Being a poor urban worker in modern day has a lot of advantages over being a subsistence farmer in a community of 90% subsistence farmers in history. And yet, it has a lot of disadvantages and existential dread as well.

maxerickson 3y ago

Why do they have a bleak outlook? The broader economy is strong, and their long term employment prospects are excellent, with many people leaving the workforce and productivity gains increasing overall wealth.

ajmurmann 3y ago
The negative economic sentiment is very common and IMO entirely manufactured because it sells. Actual economic data is excellent. It kinda makes Haidt's point. Traditional media clearly isn't helping either though.
- maxerickson 3y ago
  I can see being concerned about the spiraling cost of housing, but that's a problem with a relatively straightforward solution.
  - ajmurmann 3y ago
    Housing is definitely an issue. The obvious solution to that are probably my biggest policy issue. That said, homeownership rates in the US are close to an all-time high.
  - readyman 3y ago
    And it's a problem that predominates literally every other aspect of one's life, and one's children's lives. Discussing it as though it's just one little exception is not just out of touch; it's practically insanity.
- readyman 3y ago
  GDP is not a meaningful measurement unless you somehow believe in nonsense trickle-down economics of the most extreme degree.
  - verteu 3y ago
    But inflation-adjusted median & 10th percentile wages have grown L20yrs, (per my other comment in the thread), right?

bluescrn 3y ago

In my teenage years, I couldn't care less about 'economic outlook'. Because I rarely paid much attention to the news, and when I did, it was usually fairly balanced BBC content, not hyper-partisan hyperbole/clickbait. Teenagers should be more focused on discovering their hobbies and interests alongside their education, finding some positive goals for their lives. But social media is telling them that WW3/climate-pocalypse/Trumpageddon is coming within months/years. They'll either be thinking 'why bother?' or 'we need a revolution!'. Neither of which are good for them.

readyman 3y ago
You obviously didn't grow up poor, because if you did you'd realize how impossible that is to do when you are. Your parents are working 2 or 3 jobs and won't be home until you're almost asleep so you have to take the bus home; no afterschool activities or time with friends. That one thing alone selects the friends you can choose from. The well-to-do kids all hang out with each other because they have parental support that puts them in healthy environments they can relate to. You're speaking from a place with a lot of privilege.

verteu 3y ago

Is this economic pessimism supported by data? Online, I see lots of complaints about rent burden, but it barely increased from 25%->27% from 2001-2024 [a]. Median wages are growing faster than inflation, too. The easiest numbers to pull up are Wolfram Alpha's [1]: CPI (2001-2022): +68% (+2.5%/yr) Median wage (2001-2022): $27060 -> $46310 (2.6%/yr) Mean wage (2001-2022): $34020 -> $61900 (2.9%/yr) Bottom 10% wage (2001-2022): $14070 -> $27340 (3.2%/yr) I think there was a temporary spike in rent burden [2] [3] which quickly reversed [4]. It generated lots of headlines, but nobody paid attention to the decline. [a] https://cre.moodysanalytics.com//app/uploads/2024/02/image-1.png https://cre.moodysanalytics.com//app/uploads/2024/02/image-1... , from [4] [1] eg: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=median+US+wage+2022 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=median+US+wage+2022 [2] https://www.moodysanalytics.com/about-us/press-releases/2023-5-16-moodys-analytics-ninty-one-percent-decline-us-metros https://www.moodysanalytics.com/about-us/press-releases/2023... [3] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DP04ACS006037 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DP04ACS006037 [4] https://cre.moodysanalytics.com/insights/market-insights/q4-2023-housing-affordability-update-rent-burden-lightened-for-median-us-households-last-year-but-not-everyone-felt-the-relief/ https://cre.moodysanalytics.com/insights/market-insights/q4-... EDIT: A commenter below led me to the following stat: 32% of American adults can't afford a $500 expense with their savings (Table 12): https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2023-economic-well-being-of-us-households-in-2022-expenses.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2023-economic-we...

unclebucknasty 3y ago
Good info. Yeah I think a lot of the grief centers on housing costs and, most acutely, consumer inflation. What's mysterious about the inflation to me is that there's very little discussion exploring an inflation rationale that links it to record corporate profits and a record raging bull market. That lack of emphasis reads political to me. The people being most harmed by increased consumer prices are generally not the ones who are most benefiting from them.
- verteu 3y ago
  "When workers get pay increases, they think it's their own work; when they see inflation, they think that's bad policy" - Dean Baker I think both wages & prices around the time of covid, and it's easy to manufacture dissent over this (due to the above quote).

unclebucknasty 3y ago

As the parent of kids spanning an age range through imminent high-school graduate, I can assure you there's not much thought given to a "bleak economic outlook" among my kids or their peers. Now, it's possible—probably likely—that I'm in an economic bubble, but these same kids do suffer from other anxieties and would likely fit the studies.

bogtog 3y ago

I've interpreted this argument as a type of cope from leftist types who want to use their phones a bunch and not feel guilty (or alternatively, they have no opinion about phones and just want to use this as a springboard for a political jab)