4 ms·

And I don't understand why this isn't expressed a simple quid pro quo - China has banned US services (FB etc) for years - turnabout is fair play. Or in other wo

And I don't understand why this isn't expressed a simple quid pro quo - China has banned US services (FB etc) for years - turnabout is fair play. Or in other words, you can make money by making our people crazy and stupid when we can make yours dumb.

tzs 2y ago
> And I don't understand why this isn't expressed a simple quid pro quo Because the current situation is already quid pro quo. The rule now is US companies can operate in China if they obey the same rules in China that Chinese companies have to obey in China, and Chinese companies can operate in the US if they obey the same rules in the US that US companies have to obey. FB is not in China because China requires social media companies to turn over the identities of posters that post things the Chinese government does not like. FB does not want to do that and so FB is not allowed in China. Everything that people speculate that TikTok might do or be used for has already happened and continues to happen on Facebook. The quid pro quo approach would be for the US to regulate or ban those things on all social media apps in that operate in the US.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  > The rule now is US companies can operate in China if they obey the same rules in China that Chinese companies have to obey in China, and Chinese companies can operate in the US if they obey the same rules in the US that US companies have to obey. China practices the maxim of "we don't have a rule book, but don't do anything that makes us angry" to enforce a maximum of self censorship on its operators. Heck, Chinese services are actually required to break rules in ways that would violate America's FCPA laws (it is impossible to operate in China and not break either American or Chinese laws). > FB is not in China because China requires social media companies to turn over the identities of posters that post things the Chinese government does not like. FB would probably setup a JV in a heart beat if the Chinese government would let them (letting the JV handle the data and interaction with Chinese regulators, and keeping it completely separated from Facebook in the rest of the world). The issue is that China wants to know the identities of people outside of China, like in Taiwan or Hong Kong, and Facebook would be breaking Chinese law not revealing them, but would be breaking other country laws revealing them. Again, it is simply impossible for Facebook to operate in China without breaking either Chinese or other country laws. So they pick the rest of the world. I think ByteDance actually did the right thing with TikTok. It would be impossible to have a service that legally works both in China and outside of China, because Chinese rules would require breaking other country rules, so they did two services instead. But unfortunately, I guess the Americans don't think they are organizationally separate enough, and that the Chinese government can still exert pressure on ByteDance to reveal TikTok data, not just Douyin data.
- stale2002 2y ago
  > has already happened and continues to happen on Facebook No it hasn't. Facebook isn't sending information on US journalists to our foreign adversaries. Thats the difference. Helping out a geopolical enemy that very likely could be at war with the US or its allies, is a big deal. > all social media apps in that operate in the US. All social media apps of that size are equally not going to be controllable by our foreign adversaries. That is already what the law does. And Tiktok will be perfectly able to equally follow the law, once they sell to a non foreign adversary.
  - tzs 2y ago
    https://www.scmagazine.com/analysis/developers-in-china-russia-had-access-to-facebook-user-data-for-years-senators-say https://www.scmagazine.com/analysis/developers-in-china-russ...
- ahiknsr 2y ago
  > The rule now is US companies can operate in China if they obey the same rules in China that Chinese companies have to obey in China You forgot to mention that China hacks companies operating in China. from https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin... > Like many other well-known organizations, we face cyber attacks of varying degrees on a regular basis. In mid-December, we detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google. However, it soon became clear that what at first appeared to be solely a security incident--albeit a significant one--was something quite different. > First, this attack was not just on Google. As part of our investigation we have discovered that at least twenty other large companies from a wide range of businesses--including the Internet, finance, technology, media and chemical sectors--have been similarly targeted. We are currently in the process of notifying those companies, and we are also working with the relevant U.S. authorities.
  - tzs 2y ago
    Your link got mangled. Here is the correct link [1]. Sure, China tries to hack companies. But do they only hack foreign companies or do they also hack domestic companies? [1] https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin...

tzs 2y ago

> And I don't understand why this isn't expressed a simple quid pro quo Because the current situation is already quid pro quo. The rule now is US companies can operate in China if they obey the same rules in China that Chinese companies have to obey in China, and Chinese companies can operate in the US if they obey the same rules in the US that US companies have to obey. FB is not in China because China requires social media companies to turn over the identities of posters that post things the Chinese government does not like. FB does not want to do that and so FB is not allowed in China. Everything that people speculate that TikTok might do or be used for has already happened and continues to happen on Facebook. The quid pro quo approach would be for the US to regulate or ban those things on all social media apps in that operate in the US.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago
> The rule now is US companies can operate in China if they obey the same rules in China that Chinese companies have to obey in China, and Chinese companies can operate in the US if they obey the same rules in the US that US companies have to obey. China practices the maxim of "we don't have a rule book, but don't do anything that makes us angry" to enforce a maximum of self censorship on its operators. Heck, Chinese services are actually required to break rules in ways that would violate America's FCPA laws (it is impossible to operate in China and not break either American or Chinese laws). > FB is not in China because China requires social media companies to turn over the identities of posters that post things the Chinese government does not like. FB would probably setup a JV in a heart beat if the Chinese government would let them (letting the JV handle the data and interaction with Chinese regulators, and keeping it completely separated from Facebook in the rest of the world). The issue is that China wants to know the identities of people outside of China, like in Taiwan or Hong Kong, and Facebook would be breaking Chinese law not revealing them, but would be breaking other country laws revealing them. Again, it is simply impossible for Facebook to operate in China without breaking either Chinese or other country laws. So they pick the rest of the world. I think ByteDance actually did the right thing with TikTok. It would be impossible to have a service that legally works both in China and outside of China, because Chinese rules would require breaking other country rules, so they did two services instead. But unfortunately, I guess the Americans don't think they are organizationally separate enough, and that the Chinese government can still exert pressure on ByteDance to reveal TikTok data, not just Douyin data.
stale2002 2y ago
> has already happened and continues to happen on Facebook No it hasn't. Facebook isn't sending information on US journalists to our foreign adversaries. Thats the difference. Helping out a geopolical enemy that very likely could be at war with the US or its allies, is a big deal. > all social media apps in that operate in the US. All social media apps of that size are equally not going to be controllable by our foreign adversaries. That is already what the law does. And Tiktok will be perfectly able to equally follow the law, once they sell to a non foreign adversary.
- tzs 2y ago
  https://www.scmagazine.com/analysis/developers-in-china-russia-had-access-to-facebook-user-data-for-years-senators-say https://www.scmagazine.com/analysis/developers-in-china-russ...
ahiknsr 2y ago
> The rule now is US companies can operate in China if they obey the same rules in China that Chinese companies have to obey in China You forgot to mention that China hacks companies operating in China. from https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin... > Like many other well-known organizations, we face cyber attacks of varying degrees on a regular basis. In mid-December, we detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google. However, it soon became clear that what at first appeared to be solely a security incident--albeit a significant one--was something quite different. > First, this attack was not just on Google. As part of our investigation we have discovered that at least twenty other large companies from a wide range of businesses--including the Internet, finance, technology, media and chemical sectors--have been similarly targeted. We are currently in the process of notifying those companies, and we are also working with the relevant U.S. authorities.
- tzs 2y ago
  Your link got mangled. Here is the correct link [1]. Sure, China tries to hack companies. But do they only hack foreign companies or do they also hack domestic companies? [1] https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin...