4 ms·

This shouldn’t be controversial to pass. TikTok has (allegedly) shared US customer data overseas. And they’re effectively controlled by an adversarial state. An

This shouldn’t be controversial to pass. TikTok has (allegedly) shared US customer data overseas. And they’re effectively controlled by an adversarial state. And that state doesn’t reciprocate by letting US companies freely operate social media services there. So ban it. I don’t even think the divestment option matters - how can we trust that it actually results in a separation from China or that these privacy violating practices stop?

throwaw12 3y ago
So much bias in your comment. > TikTok has (allegedly) shared US customer data overseas. When discussing a law let's not discuss alleged things, be precise and talk about facts, was it done or not? > And they’re effectively controlled by an adversarial state. Do you think everything in this world should be controlled by the USA? > And that state doesn’t reciprocate by letting US companies freely operate social media services there. So ban it. Can you please remind me the USA is a democracy? if it is a democracy, then it should not compare itself to other forms of governments and how they operate. Every country has its laws, companies should abide by them, and the USA as far as I am aware was a proponent of free trade, capitalism and democracy
- empthought 3y ago
  There is no constitutional freedom to own a company, nor is there a constitutional right for any particular company to exist.
- MilnerRoute 3y ago
  TikTok managers overseeing the protection of U.S. data "sometimes instruct workers to share data with colleagues in other parts of the company and with ByteDance workers without going through official channels, according to current and former employees and internal documents viewed by The Wall Street Journal." https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/tiktok-pledged-to-protect-us-data-15-billion-later-it-s-still-struggling/ar-BB1htDhj https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/tiktok-pledged-to-prot...
- blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
  > When discussing a law let's not discuss alleged things, be precise and talk about facts, was it done or not? You know full well that it’s not possible to monitor or examine what these companies do, because we don’t have total transparency. > So much bias in your comment. The bias isn’t with me, but with you. Obviously you could have taken one second to do a search and find numerous articles on this, such as this one, where TikTok ADMITTED to storing US data in China, which means they lied under oath. That’s why a divestment is not enough to trust them: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandralevine/2023/06/21/tiktok-confirms-data-china-bytedance-security-cfius/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandralevine/2023/06/21/tikt... > Do you think everything in this world should be controlled by the USA? I think the CCP is a corrupt authoritarian regime that used violent revolution and force to come into power and stay there. Most people don’t trust such regimes to control anything. It’s not about the US, or even Chinese people, but about Chinese leadership. > Every country has its laws, companies should abide by them, and the USA as far as I am aware was a proponent of free trade, capitalism and democracy I’m not sure what point you’re making. Banning TikTok worldwide would be consistent with all three.
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  Non-adversarial state doesn’t mean the US only. Don’t strawman.
- overstay8930 3y ago
  > So much bias in your comment. It is perfectly okay to be biased against China, they are biased against my rights as a human. They do not deserve the benefit of the doubt, they don’t give those who “disappear” for speaking out against their government the benefit of the doubt either.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  > > And they’re effectively controlled by an adversarial state. > Do you think everything in this world should be controlled by the USA? I think that things that pump directly into the minds of the American public should not be controlled by adversaries of America. That is different from what you said, and the difference matters.
twoWhlsGud 3y ago
And I don't understand why this isn't expressed a simple quid pro quo - China has banned US services (FB etc) for years - turnabout is fair play. Or in other words, you can make money by making our people crazy and stupid when we can make yours dumb.
- tzs 3y ago
  > And I don't understand why this isn't expressed a simple quid pro quo Because the current situation is already quid pro quo. The rule now is US companies can operate in China if they obey the same rules in China that Chinese companies have to obey in China, and Chinese companies can operate in the US if they obey the same rules in the US that US companies have to obey. FB is not in China because China requires social media companies to turn over the identities of posters that post things the Chinese government does not like. FB does not want to do that and so FB is not allowed in China. Everything that people speculate that TikTok might do or be used for has already happened and continues to happen on Facebook. The quid pro quo approach would be for the US to regulate or ban those things on all social media apps in that operate in the US.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    > The rule now is US companies can operate in China if they obey the same rules in China that Chinese companies have to obey in China, and Chinese companies can operate in the US if they obey the same rules in the US that US companies have to obey. China practices the maxim of "we don't have a rule book, but don't do anything that makes us angry" to enforce a maximum of self censorship on its operators. Heck, Chinese services are actually required to break rules in ways that would violate America's FCPA laws (it is impossible to operate in China and not break either American or Chinese laws). > FB is not in China because China requires social media companies to turn over the identities of posters that post things the Chinese government does not like. FB would probably setup a JV in a heart beat if the Chinese government would let them (letting the JV handle the data and interaction with Chinese regulators, and keeping it completely separated from Facebook in the rest of the world). The issue is that China wants to know the identities of people outside of China, like in Taiwan or Hong Kong, and Facebook would be breaking Chinese law not revealing them, but would be breaking other country laws revealing them. Again, it is simply impossible for Facebook to operate in China without breaking either Chinese or other country laws. So they pick the rest of the world. I think ByteDance actually did the right thing with TikTok. It would be impossible to have a service that legally works both in China and outside of China, because Chinese rules would require breaking other country rules, so they did two services instead. But unfortunately, I guess the Americans don't think they are organizationally separate enough, and that the Chinese government can still exert pressure on ByteDance to reveal TikTok data, not just Douyin data.
jimbob45 3y ago
TikTok has (allegedly) shared US customer data overseas. They’re hardly unique to that end, no? I’m with you that this is dumb but mostly because I don’t see ByteDance holding even half its value for another decade.
avn2109 3y ago
Oh man the "sell Tiktok" thing is just pure corporate welfare for whatever US-based BigCo buys Tiktok. Spoiler alert, it will be one of the BigCo's that enthusiastically lobbied for this bill. Regulatory capture at its finest, in service of a social media tri-opoly. Microsoft and Google must be absolutely salivating right now, imagine being able to buy your way into operating a major social network in 2024, and not only do the Feds not come after you for antitrust, they actually mandate the sale and greenlight it in advance!
- no_wizard 3y ago
  In this instance someone will gain something short term, I readily acknowledge. That said, how is this different from Chinas long standing economic policies that have effectively banned many western companies from doing business there and longstanding practices of stealing trade secrets[0][1][2]? Or how about forcing companies to transfer technology and business operations to local Chinese firms[3] under threat of being banned in the Chinese market? [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950 [1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/1-in-5-companies-say-china-stole-their-ip-within-the-last-year-cnbc.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/1-in-5-companies-say-china-s... [2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/06/technology/china-generation-blocked-internet.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/06/technology/china-generati... [3]: https://www.axios.com/2021/12/21/why-us-giants-keep-caving-to-china https://www.axios.com/2021/12/21/why-us-giants-keep-caving-t...
  - archagon 3y ago
    I, for one, do not want the US to be like China.
    - Jensson 3y ago
      If you really mean that then maybe keeping Chinese influence out is a good thing?
- hollerith 3y ago
  Needing to win a bidding war for TikTok is very different from Washington's confiscating TikTok and giving it to one of its corporate friends. The winner of the bidding war might never get enough money out of TikTok to offset what it paid for TikTok. The seller (ByteDance) is not stupid, and anyone who want to bid can bid.
no_wizard 3y ago
I am surprised there is such resistance here to be honest. The Chinese government has had trade restrictions for decades - including forced disclosures and forced local ownership for investing firms, forced disclosure of tech, been caught hacking into systems and stealing IP etc. - as well as banning multiple western companies apps under their own excuses without substantive evidence. Why should the US or any other trade partner with China therefore keep such a lopsided relationship? Seems like the US has a case here IMO, given all this history and practice. We should have been tougher on this years ago
- overstay8930 3y ago
  > I am surprised there is such resistance here to be honest. You’ll probably not be surprised to find out there’s a lot of anti-US sentiment courtesy of Chinese, Russian and Iranian propaganda. Plenty of younger folks fall for it, same stuff in the 70s and 80s on college campuses with supposedly well educated people talking about how the Soviet Union had higher standards of living than the US, and the “tyranny” was all just American propaganda.
  - woooooo 3y ago
    Personally, I only subscribe to American propaganda.
    - throwoutway 3y ago
      How do you know? That's the whole point of propaganda.
      - woooooo 3y ago
        Easy, anything I don't like is the fault of Russians, Chinese and Iranians.
  - swatcoder 3y ago
    Huh. I read most of the challenges to this ban as either explicitly championing US-colored ideals of free markets and free speech or simple personal frustration because people don't want to lose the experience of the app. I'd expect some of the messaging gets amplified and shaped by adversarial parties, but the framing is rarely/never aligned with "anti-US" rhetoric on this topic. Your concern sounds like a different thing than what applies to this discussion.
banku_brougham 3y ago
Meta data, like all US customer data, is available to whoever pays for it. I just can't understand this distinction. Its clear TikTok has not done the legwork and deployed significant spend on PAC and lobbying.
archagon 3y ago
It should not be possible to “ban” software. I am appalled that the government, in collusion with OS vendors, can tell me what software I’m allowed to run on my personal devices. In an ideal world, TikTok would be prevented from doing business in the US, but everyone would continue to download the TikTok client and act like nothing happened. Just like with Napster and BitTorrent.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  It definitely is possible to "ban" software in China. Just block the network addresses needed to run the app. Perhaps the USA could license technology from China to do it? But that would be too ironic. Actually, without something like a GFW, the USA can't do more than "ban" app stores from carrying the app in the US market, they can't even really prevent you from switching markets and using an overseas credit card. But they can definitely ban American based tiktokers from getting paid, or American based advertisers from using the platform commercially, which will probably hurt more than anything.
- IAmGraydon 3y ago
  I think you’re missing the point that these programs are now indescribably powerful for swaying social sentiment. They can be made into weapons of mass disruption. Of course you and I want the internet to be completely open, but the world has changed drastically since the early days and bad actors have created software that gives them huge amounts of power. It’s utterly irresponsible not to regulate such a thing.
  - raydev 3y ago
    That's not what's happening, though. We are banning one app because of its origin country, not because of any principled reasoning on the app's contents. If for some reason TikTok actually disappears, Meta's apps are still there and there will be plenty of money flowing into a new competitor with similar UX.

throwaw12 3y ago

So much bias in your comment. > TikTok has (allegedly) shared US customer data overseas. When discussing a law let's not discuss alleged things, be precise and talk about facts, was it done or not? > And they’re effectively controlled by an adversarial state. Do you think everything in this world should be controlled by the USA? > And that state doesn’t reciprocate by letting US companies freely operate social media services there. So ban it. Can you please remind me the USA is a democracy? if it is a democracy, then it should not compare itself to other forms of governments and how they operate. Every country has its laws, companies should abide by them, and the USA as far as I am aware was a proponent of free trade, capitalism and democracy

empthought 3y ago
There is no constitutional freedom to own a company, nor is there a constitutional right for any particular company to exist.
MilnerRoute 3y ago
TikTok managers overseeing the protection of U.S. data "sometimes instruct workers to share data with colleagues in other parts of the company and with ByteDance workers without going through official channels, according to current and former employees and internal documents viewed by The Wall Street Journal." https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/tiktok-pledged-to-protect-us-data-15-billion-later-it-s-still-struggling/ar-BB1htDhj https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/tiktok-pledged-to-prot...
blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
> When discussing a law let's not discuss alleged things, be precise and talk about facts, was it done or not? You know full well that it’s not possible to monitor or examine what these companies do, because we don’t have total transparency. > So much bias in your comment. The bias isn’t with me, but with you. Obviously you could have taken one second to do a search and find numerous articles on this, such as this one, where TikTok ADMITTED to storing US data in China, which means they lied under oath. That’s why a divestment is not enough to trust them: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandralevine/2023/06/21/tiktok-confirms-data-china-bytedance-security-cfius/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandralevine/2023/06/21/tikt... > Do you think everything in this world should be controlled by the USA? I think the CCP is a corrupt authoritarian regime that used violent revolution and force to come into power and stay there. Most people don’t trust such regimes to control anything. It’s not about the US, or even Chinese people, but about Chinese leadership. > Every country has its laws, companies should abide by them, and the USA as far as I am aware was a proponent of free trade, capitalism and democracy I’m not sure what point you’re making. Banning TikTok worldwide would be consistent with all three.
zeroonetwothree 3y ago
Non-adversarial state doesn’t mean the US only. Don’t strawman.
overstay8930 3y ago
> So much bias in your comment. It is perfectly okay to be biased against China, they are biased against my rights as a human. They do not deserve the benefit of the doubt, they don’t give those who “disappear” for speaking out against their government the benefit of the doubt either.
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
> > And they’re effectively controlled by an adversarial state. > Do you think everything in this world should be controlled by the USA? I think that things that pump directly into the minds of the American public should not be controlled by adversaries of America. That is different from what you said, and the difference matters.

twoWhlsGud 3y ago

And I don't understand why this isn't expressed a simple quid pro quo - China has banned US services (FB etc) for years - turnabout is fair play. Or in other words, you can make money by making our people crazy and stupid when we can make yours dumb.

tzs 3y ago
> And I don't understand why this isn't expressed a simple quid pro quo Because the current situation is already quid pro quo. The rule now is US companies can operate in China if they obey the same rules in China that Chinese companies have to obey in China, and Chinese companies can operate in the US if they obey the same rules in the US that US companies have to obey. FB is not in China because China requires social media companies to turn over the identities of posters that post things the Chinese government does not like. FB does not want to do that and so FB is not allowed in China. Everything that people speculate that TikTok might do or be used for has already happened and continues to happen on Facebook. The quid pro quo approach would be for the US to regulate or ban those things on all social media apps in that operate in the US.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  > The rule now is US companies can operate in China if they obey the same rules in China that Chinese companies have to obey in China, and Chinese companies can operate in the US if they obey the same rules in the US that US companies have to obey. China practices the maxim of "we don't have a rule book, but don't do anything that makes us angry" to enforce a maximum of self censorship on its operators. Heck, Chinese services are actually required to break rules in ways that would violate America's FCPA laws (it is impossible to operate in China and not break either American or Chinese laws). > FB is not in China because China requires social media companies to turn over the identities of posters that post things the Chinese government does not like. FB would probably setup a JV in a heart beat if the Chinese government would let them (letting the JV handle the data and interaction with Chinese regulators, and keeping it completely separated from Facebook in the rest of the world). The issue is that China wants to know the identities of people outside of China, like in Taiwan or Hong Kong, and Facebook would be breaking Chinese law not revealing them, but would be breaking other country laws revealing them. Again, it is simply impossible for Facebook to operate in China without breaking either Chinese or other country laws. So they pick the rest of the world. I think ByteDance actually did the right thing with TikTok. It would be impossible to have a service that legally works both in China and outside of China, because Chinese rules would require breaking other country rules, so they did two services instead. But unfortunately, I guess the Americans don't think they are organizationally separate enough, and that the Chinese government can still exert pressure on ByteDance to reveal TikTok data, not just Douyin data.

jimbob45 3y ago

TikTok has (allegedly) shared US customer data overseas. They’re hardly unique to that end, no? I’m with you that this is dumb but mostly because I don’t see ByteDance holding even half its value for another decade.

avn2109 3y ago

Oh man the "sell Tiktok" thing is just pure corporate welfare for whatever US-based BigCo buys Tiktok. Spoiler alert, it will be one of the BigCo's that enthusiastically lobbied for this bill. Regulatory capture at its finest, in service of a social media tri-opoly. Microsoft and Google must be absolutely salivating right now, imagine being able to buy your way into operating a major social network in 2024, and not only do the Feds not come after you for antitrust, they actually mandate the sale and greenlight it in advance!

no_wizard 3y ago
In this instance someone will gain something short term, I readily acknowledge. That said, how is this different from Chinas long standing economic policies that have effectively banned many western companies from doing business there and longstanding practices of stealing trade secrets[0][1][2]? Or how about forcing companies to transfer technology and business operations to local Chinese firms[3] under threat of being banned in the Chinese market? [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950 [1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/1-in-5-companies-say-china-stole-their-ip-within-the-last-year-cnbc.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/1-in-5-companies-say-china-s... [2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/06/technology/china-generation-blocked-internet.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/06/technology/china-generati... [3]: https://www.axios.com/2021/12/21/why-us-giants-keep-caving-to-china https://www.axios.com/2021/12/21/why-us-giants-keep-caving-t...
- archagon 3y ago
  I, for one, do not want the US to be like China.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    If you really mean that then maybe keeping Chinese influence out is a good thing?
hollerith 3y ago
Needing to win a bidding war for TikTok is very different from Washington's confiscating TikTok and giving it to one of its corporate friends. The winner of the bidding war might never get enough money out of TikTok to offset what it paid for TikTok. The seller (ByteDance) is not stupid, and anyone who want to bid can bid.

no_wizard 3y ago

I am surprised there is such resistance here to be honest. The Chinese government has had trade restrictions for decades - including forced disclosures and forced local ownership for investing firms, forced disclosure of tech, been caught hacking into systems and stealing IP etc. - as well as banning multiple western companies apps under their own excuses without substantive evidence. Why should the US or any other trade partner with China therefore keep such a lopsided relationship? Seems like the US has a case here IMO, given all this history and practice. We should have been tougher on this years ago

overstay8930 3y ago
> I am surprised there is such resistance here to be honest. You’ll probably not be surprised to find out there’s a lot of anti-US sentiment courtesy of Chinese, Russian and Iranian propaganda. Plenty of younger folks fall for it, same stuff in the 70s and 80s on college campuses with supposedly well educated people talking about how the Soviet Union had higher standards of living than the US, and the “tyranny” was all just American propaganda.
- woooooo 3y ago
  Personally, I only subscribe to American propaganda.
  - throwoutway 3y ago
    How do you know? That's the whole point of propaganda.
    - woooooo 3y ago
      Easy, anything I don't like is the fault of Russians, Chinese and Iranians.
- swatcoder 3y ago
  Huh. I read most of the challenges to this ban as either explicitly championing US-colored ideals of free markets and free speech or simple personal frustration because people don't want to lose the experience of the app. I'd expect some of the messaging gets amplified and shaped by adversarial parties, but the framing is rarely/never aligned with "anti-US" rhetoric on this topic. Your concern sounds like a different thing than what applies to this discussion.

banku_brougham 3y ago

Meta data, like all US customer data, is available to whoever pays for it. I just can't understand this distinction. Its clear TikTok has not done the legwork and deployed significant spend on PAC and lobbying.

archagon 3y ago

It should not be possible to “ban” software. I am appalled that the government, in collusion with OS vendors, can tell me what software I’m allowed to run on my personal devices. In an ideal world, TikTok would be prevented from doing business in the US, but everyone would continue to download the TikTok client and act like nothing happened. Just like with Napster and BitTorrent.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
It definitely is possible to "ban" software in China. Just block the network addresses needed to run the app. Perhaps the USA could license technology from China to do it? But that would be too ironic. Actually, without something like a GFW, the USA can't do more than "ban" app stores from carrying the app in the US market, they can't even really prevent you from switching markets and using an overseas credit card. But they can definitely ban American based tiktokers from getting paid, or American based advertisers from using the platform commercially, which will probably hurt more than anything.
IAmGraydon 3y ago
I think you’re missing the point that these programs are now indescribably powerful for swaying social sentiment. They can be made into weapons of mass disruption. Of course you and I want the internet to be completely open, but the world has changed drastically since the early days and bad actors have created software that gives them huge amounts of power. It’s utterly irresponsible not to regulate such a thing.
- raydev 3y ago
  That's not what's happening, though. We are banning one app because of its origin country, not because of any principled reasoning on the app's contents. If for some reason TikTok actually disappears, Meta's apps are still there and there will be plenty of money flowing into a new competitor with similar UX.