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House approves sell-or-be-banned TikTok measure
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- sharpshadow 3y agoWhat’s the reason the US insists to own this company? I can imagine they want to control the narrative with the mentioned algorithm. But are they afraid of it that much that they would ban it if they can’t get it? I mean 170 million Americans in the young demographic are quite important.
- trevoragilbert 3y agoIt doesn’t have to be owned by a US company, it just needs to not be owned by a CCP backed entity.
- jncfhnb 3y agoThey are concerned that China will weaponize the algorithm to promote anti-Taiwan, anti-Ukraine, anti-Israel, pro-China narratives, and other socially divisive content (and other future issues)
- bushbaba 3y ago*and anti American
- krapp 3y agoAnd there's nothing wrong with any of that. Freedom of speech exists to protect offensive, controversial and heterodox speech, not just speech approved by the CIA, moderators and corporate sponsors. I don't know what the CCP could tell America's impressionable youths that's worse than the torrent of capitalist mind-control, propaganda, hate speech and psychosis they're already being flooded with.
- literallycancer 3y agoGreat, when are you moving to China?
- krapp 3y agoThat's an odd non-sequitur to make, why would I move to China?
- jncfhnb 3y agoFreedom of speech does not protect the CCP’s right to curate American conversations. You as an individual are perfectly free to continue discussing anti American ideas if you wish.
- bugglebeetle 3y agoAh, so just like when the U.S. didn’t like the Soviets pointing out they were an apartheid state during the Civil Rights era. Truly a winning strategy!
- lenerdenator 3y agoOne of the two states you mention still exists.
- jncfhnb 3y agoNo, more like the things I just mentioned.
- boredpeter 3y ago[dead]
- MajimasEyepatch 3y agoWhy would we allow a hostile foreign power with whom we may be at war in a few years to have total control over a major part of the information diet of millions of Americans? The Soviets wouldn't have been allowed to own NBC in the Cold War, and China shouldn't be allowed to own the modern-day equivalent. The US won't own the company. Some non-Chinese private corporation will. The government won't be able to control the narrative on the app. If you disagree with that, just think about what would happen if Fox bought it: would a Democratic administration be able to have any influence whatsoever on the algorithm? No, of course not. It would be run by American citizens who are protected by the First Amendment. (Also, I don't think it even has to be owned by an American company, just not a Chinese one.)
- Dalewyn 3y ago>a hostile foreign power with whom we may be at war in a few years I'm flagging this because while I agree China is a hostile power, it's detrimental to stoke the flames of war like this.
- MajimasEyepatch 3y agoHey, they're the ones who keep talking about invading Taiwan. Authoritarian regimes tend to be surprisingly honest about their intentions. Believe them when they tell you what they're going to do.
- no_wizard 3y agoThey’re the ones who have been stoking it for decades. Stealing trade secrets, forcing Chinese ownership of operations on companies to continue operating in China or they’d be forced to sell/shutdown and a host of other documented economic policies that are far more damaging than this to foreign companies in China. Honestly it’s shocking the US looked the other way for so long
- trashtester 3y agoThe possibility of war between the US and China within our lifetime is a known and all-to-realistic possibility, which has been public knowledge for a number of years. I don't agree that acknowledging that in any way stokes the flames of war. Having to tip-toe around the fact would be severely detrimental to the quality of discussion on HN, though.
- jccooper 3y agoI think the idea is that a foreign-owned major media company might be directed by that foreign government to work against national interests. Which idea is not so far-fetched.
- xyst 3y agoSo if TikTok is forced to be sold to American conglomerate, which company is likely to take over? Google? Great, an even larger company gets free data Microsoft? Yuck. Pass. Apple? Probably not a good idea to lock it behind the Apple Wall. It might have worked for Instagram in 2009-2010, but the ecosystem has lost its desire. Twitter? Doubt this company has enough capital left to absorb the ecosystem of TT. Not even sure if there’s engineering talent left to absorb it, let alone perform the transition.
- fatjokes 3y agoLast time this happened it was either Walmart or Oracle
- apothegm 3y agoTwo different issues. None of those will be great for privacy, but they’d likely be better for national security than funneling all that data straight to the CCP. Congress sadly DNGAF about our privacy rights, but they are rightfully concerned about espionage and psyops.
- MajimasEyepatch 3y agoThis is correct. People like to conflate the privacy concerns about American social media with the national security concerns about TikTok, but they really are different things. Yes, privacy will still be a problem, but a) no more than it is with any other social media platform, and b) at least the incentives will be transparent. Publicly traded companies want to generate a return for their investors, which they do by focusing on growth and profit, to varying degrees. So it's pretty easy to understand that everything they do is going to ultimately be to the benefit of their bottom line. And their leadership, shareholders, and operations are subject to American laws. With a Chinese-owned company, their incentives are to do what's best for the CCP. In the short term, maybe that's making some money and allowing American Zoomers to work themselves into a frenzy over Gaza, but it may also be interfering in our elections, undermining support for NATO and Taiwan, pushing pro-CCP narratives, etc.
- trevoragilbert 3y ago
- yk 3y agoCapitalism is when congress rides in on a white horse when the communists win in the market place.
- ilrwbwrkhv 3y agoAbsolutely. What a sham.
- exe34 3y agoNow do it the other way round - open up the Chinese market to American companies instead of controlling/banning them!
- swatcoder 3y agoWhether or not one believes it to be either warranted or sound, this is a ultimately a national security concern not an economic one. Many people see much hotter conflict with China on the horizon and TikTok in its current form presents a greater risk of letting an adversary manipulate messaging during that conflict than its major competitors do. That's a strategic threat. Fair and constructive debate can be had as to whether banning it aligns with free speech ideology, whether a conflict is really coming, whether TikTok is really a vector for adversarial manipulation, etc -- but when you don't engage with the apparent and rather straightforward rationale for a ban, you just inject chaos into the discussion and complicate the work of those who might make legitimate arguments against it.
- CuriouslyC 3y agoA "Free Market" is a sham concept. Noam Chomsky laid this out very clearly.
- literallycancer 3y agoTankie opinions are completely irrelevant to the functioning of the market.
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- andsoitis 3y agoWhich countries have banned TikTok and why: https://www.euronews.com/next/2024/03/14/which-countries-have-banned-tiktok-cybersecurity-data-privacy-espionage-fears https://www.euronews.com/next/2024/03/14/which-countries-hav...
- throwaway63467 3y agoThese countries banned the app from phones of public officials it seems, that’s a far cry from a full ban.
- andsoitis 3y agoIndia has a nationwide ban: ” In 2020, India imposed a ban on TikTok and dozens of other Chinese apps, including the messaging app WeChat, over privacy and security concerns. The ban came shortly after a clash between Indian and Chinese troops at a disputed Himalayan border killed 20 Indian soldiers and injured dozens. The companies were given a chance to respond to questions on privacy and security requirements but the ban was made permanent in January 2021.” That is 1.4 billion people.
- bugglebeetle 3y ago[flagged]
- krapp 3y ago>Is this what we’re seeking to emulate here in the land of the free? Have you been hiding under a rock for the last 20 years?
- geor9e 3y agoSince that's so wordy, I'll provide a summary: Governments that are banning Tiktok: - Taliban in Afghanistan - Congress in USA Governments that ban federal employees and military from installing third party apps on secure devices: - Pretty much all of them
- jebby 3y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j0xzuh-6rY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j0xzuh-6rY [TikTok in China versus the United States | 60 Minutes] This was around the time I decided that I didn't care what happened to TikTok.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- pastaking 3y agoIt's two different sets of creators -> two content pools. Also, there are many, many users outside of US or China, with their own regional content pools.
- moron4hire 3y agoByteDance exercises a LOT of editorial control over what gets promoted in the stream, though. If TikTok pushed educational videos on users in the US, you'd see everyone clamoring to be Steve Mould.
- koolba 3y agoThis should be required viewing for anyone even thinking of giving an electronic device to a child.
- fma 3y agoThe survey was very interesting... #1 aspirational career in China being astronaut and the US being influencer. I have a 1st grader and one day she said she wants to be youtuber when she grows up. She learned this from her peers. Prior to this answer, she wanted to be a doctor. I asked her what happened to being a doctor, and she says, she can be both (thank goodness, probably the best answer I can wish for).
- yawpitch 3y agoNot sure I like to speak truth to 1st graders, but the days of YouTube influencer being something you could aspire to are kind of over.
- bugglebeetle 3y agoor how Democrats can lose an election with this one cool trick to alienate young voters!
- teaearlgraycold 3y agoHow many young people that care enough about TikTok to hate politicians for this law are actually voting? Half of them are under 18. Most of the other half have never showed up to vote in their lives.
- bugglebeetle 3y agoShow me how little you know about the 2020 election with this one cool post: https://circle.tufts.edu/latest-research/election-week-2020 https://circle.tufts.edu/latest-research/election-week-2020
- Jensson 3y agoWho would they vote for? Trump is even more hostile to foreign influence than what Biden is, I doubt Trump would campaign to overturn this.
- falcolas 3y agoWhelp, there goes TikTok (unless the first amendment challenges succeed, which there is precedent for (thanks, Montana)), as China has already clearly indicated they are unwilling to sell their 20% share. Nothing quite like congress ignoring their 170 million plus constituents (aka a majority of citizens) and 30k+ businesses, eh? Though, I can’t pretend that this is the first time.
- lenerdenator 3y agoIt's time we stopped pretending markets are the best way to solve any societal problem. The Chinese sure as hell don't care about letting Meta/Twitter/Google etc. operating in their country; why should we let them have a cyber beach head in ours? Turnabout is fair play and free markets are not necessarily safe markets.
- falcolas 3y agoWhy should the US lower itself to China’s standards? Or to use a proverb: An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
- stale2002 3y agoEmpowering a foreign adversary that is going to be at war with either us or our allies in a few years isn't a "higher standard". Instead, its a national security threat that is going to help them kill a lot more people.
- falcolas 3y agoAgain, China owns a minority share at 20%. And data for US citizens is stored on US soil, managed by a US company: Oracle. Come back when there’s a verified threat that Facebook doesn’t already pose to US citizens.
- stale2002 3y ago> Come back when Or instead of waiting until a world war happens, we eliminate the threat now before it can be wielded and the damage is already done.
- blackeyeblitzar 3y agoThis shouldn’t be controversial to pass. TikTok has (allegedly) shared US customer data overseas. And they’re effectively controlled by an adversarial state. And that state doesn’t reciprocate by letting US companies freely operate social media services there. So ban it. I don’t even think the divestment option matters - how can we trust that it actually results in a separation from China or that these privacy violating practices stop?
- throwaw12 3y agoSo much bias in your comment. > TikTok has (allegedly) shared US customer data overseas. When discussing a law let's not discuss alleged things, be precise and talk about facts, was it done or not? > And they’re effectively controlled by an adversarial state. Do you think everything in this world should be controlled by the USA? > And that state doesn’t reciprocate by letting US companies freely operate social media services there. So ban it. Can you please remind me the USA is a democracy? if it is a democracy, then it should not compare itself to other forms of governments and how they operate. Every country has its laws, companies should abide by them, and the USA as far as I am aware was a proponent of free trade, capitalism and democracy
- empthought 3y agoThere is no constitutional freedom to own a company, nor is there a constitutional right for any particular company to exist.
- MilnerRoute 3y agoTikTok managers overseeing the protection of U.S. data "sometimes instruct workers to share data with colleagues in other parts of the company and with ByteDance workers without going through official channels, according to current and former employees and internal documents viewed by The Wall Street Journal." https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/tiktok-pledged-to-protect-us-data-15-billion-later-it-s-still-struggling/ar-BB1htDhj https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/tiktok-pledged-to-prot...
- blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dachworker 3y agoFeels like both in the US and Europe, these "moderate" "liberal" "democrats" have lost all respect for our supposed freedoms. Makes me wonder whether all that posturing about the supposed moral superiority of the western world had any solid foundations or not.
- Veraticus 3y agoDoes China have the freedom to operate spyware and propaganda outlets worldwide? Is that articulated in some statement of universal human rights I missed?
- dachworker 3y agoI think Israel does.
- Veraticus 3y agoJewish conspiracy theories? Nice!
- zeroonetwothree 3y agoit seems that bringing up Israel in unrelated threads is some new Godwin’s law corollary.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Leary 3y agoAmerican users do have the right to receive Chinese Communist propaganda. See Lamont vs. Postmaster General [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamont_v._Postmaster_General#:~:text=Postmaster%20General%2C%20381%20U.S.%20301,deliver%20only%20upon%20the%20addressee's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamont_v._Postmaster_General#:...
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
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- user982 3y ago[flagged]
- RobotToaster 3y ago[flagged]
- overstay8930 3y ago[flagged]
- woooooo 3y ago[flagged]
- overstay8930 3y agoImplying the United States government will make exceptions and bend over backwards for a Pro-Israel lobbying firm is quite literally spreading false information and antisemitism, actually. Criticism of Israel isn’t antisemetic, but lying about basic facts because you dislike a particular group of people is antisemitism.
- woooooo 3y ago[flagged]
- overstay8930 3y agoAIPAC doesn’t even break the top 100 in the United States, let alone the world. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-influential-is-aipac https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-influen... You’re also just straight up lying about congressional record as well. Congress votes against AIPAC interests regularly. Go ahead and cite the claim that the US government does everything AIPAC wants, but you’d just be wasting your time looking. Maybe your deep state goons will help you out here. You are just lying blatantly and openly because you dislike the idea of a Jewish state. All you’re doing is spreading hate and misinformation.
- haswell 3y agoMost of the opposition I hear to a TikTok ban/divestment boils down to: 1. If TikTok is a problem, so are the other social media platforms 2. The Chinese government can just buy data from a data broker if the ban goes through 3. Such a ban is purely made of xenophobia 4. There’s no evidence that TikTok is being used to influence its users 5. Such a ban runs afoul of the 1st amendment To this, I say: 1. I agree that the other platforms are a problem and we need comprehensive privacy legislation to address that. Could action against TikTok be better framed as a first step focused on low hanging fruit? 2. I think too many people focus on data gathering in the abstract without considering the richness of data that is only available in 1st party form, i.e. granular data about the kinds of content and ideas that users are interested in and susceptible to. This may exist in some forms from data brokers, but 1st party access enables something much more powerful. 3. I do think some people are primarily concerned because of xenophobia, but this has little bearing on the potentially real underlying issues. 4. TikTok directly asking users to contact their lawmakers was an overt act that shows the platform is capable of spurring on political action by its users. A CCP-controlled platform that can successfully get people to call their congresspeople should make us pause. 5. I am not a lawyer, but this seems like a scenario where commerce is regulated, not speech. I think there is a lot of confusion about what constitutes a true first amendment issue, and in the absence of TikTok, there are a myriad of ways to continue expressing freely. This is a hard issue to discuss outside of a community like HN because almost all discussions are made up of whataboutism or hardline opinions aligned to 1-5. I truly don’t know what the right answer is, but I do think TikTok should worry us. I think other platforms should worry us too. We already know how harmful Facebook has been to the political process, and arguably social media is still in its infancy compared to whatever is yet to come.
- throwaw12 3y ago> Could action against TikTok be better framed as a first step focused on low hanging fruit? Absolutely no, because if you are making first steps, you need generalize approach and not selectively target companies > TikTok directly asking users to contact their lawmakers was an overt act that shows the platform is capable of spurring on political action by its users. What's wrong with this exactly? You have rights to call your congress representatives when you need them, it is normal and expected in functioning democracy, why this is an exception?
- web3-is-a-scam 3y agoThe government doesn’t care that TikTok is collecting your data. They only care they can’t control it like other American tech giants.
- zeroonetwothree 3y agoWell, yes basically. What else would they do?
- banku_brougham 3y agoexactly
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- hamilyon2 3y ago"And how is it technically possible to ban a website in US?" "We will just use the same thing we introduced and sweared it will ever be used only, ONLY to protect children"
- etaioinshrdlu 3y agoCan someone link to the text to the bill? I don't care about TikTok - but this bill is likely to have such wider effects than just TikTok. It may affect the ability of Americans to access many foreign services.
- zeroonetwothree 3y agoIt’s very narrow
- rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y agoThe sell option makes no sense. How would it work that TikTok is owned by the US only within the US but by China for the rest of the world? Sure the US-based entity of ByteDance could be sold to a US-based company but couldn't they just relocate all digital-related assets and operations (databases, app servers, developers, etc) outside of the USA, e.g. Canada or Mexico? They should have just banned the whole thing. Anyway, the US should be prepared to ban or regulate other platforms, because all the propaganda that would have come out of TikTok will instead appear in Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, etc. Social media really is the worst invention of our time and honestly I'd be happy to see those platforms go.
- Merrill 3y agoMexico has about half as many TikTok users as the US. I would think that ByteDance would continue that operation, as well as other major user populations in Indonesia, Brazil, etc.
- wmf 3y agoPlenty of companies have country-specific subsidiaries that share the brand. Heck, China requires some fraction (51%?) local ownership.
- Brybry 3y agoIf Bytedance tried to dodge it then the app stores (which are all run by American companies) wouldn't be allowed to list the TikTok app and no US company would be allowed to host the website. [1] So, yes, the website would still work when hosted outside of the US and people could sideload the app but in general it would kill TikTok. [1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/8038/text#toc-H808ECDA050C44AE19AA10EFA0F5FA10B https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/8038...
- banku_brougham 3y ago>they should have just banned the whole thing How is this such a common opinion while we also critcize the great firewall?
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- cbxyp 3y agoFitting and ironic that it's shoved in with the fund Israel and Ukraine bill. Which is the real reason that the government gives a single shit about controlling TikTok in the first place. (Read what the ADL has posted about TikTok and that point becomes extremely clear, the US government does not give a shit about the safety and security of ITS citizens, only questionable foreign policy)
- zeroonetwothree 3y agoIt’s the way the sausage is made
- aprilthird2021 3y agoWhy does the US bend over for one of the worst allies we've ever had. Who takes our money and constantly, publicly spits in our face, has their leaders come to our country to campaign against our own elected leaders, throws huge public hissy fits when we decide to sanction a division of their army notorious for rapes and brutal killings, never listens to any advice we give them, breaks all our rules, and expects a handout in the end, and uses our own money to buy off our own politicians through a lobbying group? Can't wait for us to be rid of them
- rationalfaith 3y ago[dead]
- Merrill 3y agoIt seems unlikely that Byte Dance would divest of all of TikTok, since the US users are only about 10% of global TikTok users. They would more likely either shut down the US operation, support US users from outside the US, or sell the US users to one of the other social media networks.
- aprilthird2021 3y agoThey wouldn't divest TikTok ever for any reason no matter how much money in brings in, imo. The gov't won't let them
- kevincox 3y ago10% of users but I would suspect that they are more than 10% of the profits.
- dmos62 3y agoOthers posted great reasons to dislike TikTok. I hear you, but I'll miss it because of how great the recommendations are/were for me. Instagram's recommendation engine is in a lower league in my experience. It's important to click "not interested" on meme videos for both platforms though. Instagram keeps reverting to meme videos for me (probably because my habits get away from me), but my TikTok account never gives me memes or what I consider low value content. I wish there was something more like HN, in that it's text-centric, doesn't put my dopamine mechanics into overdrive, but with the content multitude and recommendation accuracy of TikTok. HN is great, but tech stuff isn't the only stuff I care about, and I've not seen good manual moderation scale beyond a frontpage or so.
- rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y agoRead a book. Or watch TV, stream a movie, documentary, an audio book, play a video game. There are plenty of substitutes to media consumption/entertainment, and some are actually good for your mental health.
- bdangubic 3y agoExcellent suggestions though I think we should then ban the whole internet and just read and watch TV
- rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y agoNo one is arguing that the "whole internet" is a propaganda machine
- aprilthird2021 3y agoThe Internet is a propaganda machine, and the US and its pesky First Amendment actually allows foreign governments to post whatever propaganda they want on there and for US Citizens to consume it if they choose to. (Note: There are exceptions for anything the government classifies as "terrorism")
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- rationalfaith 3y ago[dead]
- bryan_w 3y agoA lot of headwinds that they're going to face with the public is due to tik tok buying their audience's favor. Their creator program pays a lot of people decent amounts of money and pays an not insignificant amount of people life-changing amounts of money. YouTube can't match it and Instagram isn't even trying.
- throwaw12 3y ago[flagged]
- rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y agoThat's not controversial, losing the (domestic) narrative is exactly what it means to be combating Chinese propaganda
- throwaw12 3y agowhy is it called propaganda when narrative is pushed by China, Russia, but called out democracy and free speech when same type of propaganda pushed by the US?
- JumpCrisscross 3y agoIt’s not. It’s called propaganda all around. In between is organic content. But it’s irrational to want your own population subjected to an adversary’s propaganda.
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ChrisArchitect 3y ago[dupe] Some more discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40099135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40099135
- gjvc 3y ago[flagged]
- Ekaros 3y agoI believe every country on earth should follow this example. All social media must be either be sold or be banned. Only by brining them inside the economic blocks and under control can they sensibly be allowed.
- sarimkx 3y agoReal reason why this is happening now. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/younger-americans-stand-out-in-their-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/younger-a...