3 ms·

> regardless of whether I can subscribe to all of their principles Sure, being able to work with people who have different values is a noble thing. But what ab

> regardless of whether I can subscribe to all of their principles Sure, being able to work with people who have different values is a noble thing. But what about whether or not they observe international law? This is like a business saying "I cooperate with all customers, regardless of their criminal nature". That is a quite different statement.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
Doesn't that lead to absurdities, though? Like, is McDonald's morally required to avoid serving known fentanyl dealers?
- pphysch 3y ago
  I think McDonald's would condemn and distance itself from a high-profile customer or partner that was responsible for highly illegal activity like that. Like it did with Russia.
SuperHeavy256 3y ago
Exactly. The CEO is speaking in doublespeak (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP07oyFTRXc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP07oyFTRXc)
atoav 3y ago
There is a line between saying "I am a business person and therefore I don't judge people with different values" and saying "I am a business person and therefore I expect not to be judged for my lack of ethical behavior".
simmerup 3y ago
Like when Twitter declined to remove ISIS propaganda due to their liberal principles
- pessimizer 3y ago
  ISIS propaganda isn't a crime, and anyone can be smeared as an ISIS propagandist for questioning any military decision or explanation (it's almost exclusively how Anglo-American politics is done these days.) Using unwritten and unconstitutional speech crimes as the benchmark for criminality is scary. Call me when some military contractor is helping jihadists find targets in Syria.
- jan3024 3y ago
  Yep that liberal company that’s owned by Trump. ISIS is the GOP, they both believe the same things about women.
- screenoridesaga 3y ago
  [flagged]
legitster 3y ago
As a complication, it's important to state that concentration camps were not against international laws at the time! Pursing racist and eugenic policies was in vogue, and many of Germany's concentration camps were toured and audited by the Red Cross before the war! It's because of the holocaust that we thankfully have changed our collective attitude about such things. But in 1939, people's knowledge of the racial atrocities happening was very restricted, so I don't think we can underrate just how naïve some people where at the time.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  I don't think eugenics by means of killing people was ever widely considered moral or even a gray area. What happened a lot at the beginning of WWII was that people didn't know what was happening at the concentration camps. And yes, there were some twisted moral templates at the time based on racism and dehumanization.
  - shadowgovt 3y ago
    > I don't think eugenics by means of killing people was ever widely considered moral or even a gray area. Oof, how I wish that were true. You may be interested in Pernick, Martin (1999): The Black Stork: Eugenics and the Death of "Defective" Babies in American Medicine and Motion Pictures since 1915. Several nations (the US included) were well on their way to "Great Society" ideas of shaping the next generation by controlling genetics (be that in who reproduced or who was allowed to live). A lot of experiments ended abruptly when the Allies reached the camps, and a lot of politically-powerful institutions have kicked dirt over their own pasts to try and help people forget that's where we were headed. (Quite a few experiments did not; forced sterilization wasn't outlawed in the US until, IIRC, the eighties).
  - xhkkffbf 3y ago
    You might want to read a bit more about Margaret Sanger and her little project called "Planned Parenthood."
- xhkkffbf 3y ago
  Indeed, the US had their own camps that they filled with Japanese, Germans, Italians and a few others. Of course they were relatively nicer to the people placed in the camps.
marcosdumay 3y ago
Yes, understanding and cooperating with people of very different values can be noble or evil, it depends entirely on what those different values are. Also, legality doesn't have a close relation to morality, so cooperating with people regardless of legality can also be noble or evil.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago

Doesn't that lead to absurdities, though? Like, is McDonald's morally required to avoid serving known fentanyl dealers?

pphysch 3y ago
I think McDonald's would condemn and distance itself from a high-profile customer or partner that was responsible for highly illegal activity like that. Like it did with Russia.

SuperHeavy256 3y ago

Exactly. The CEO is speaking in doublespeak (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP07oyFTRXc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP07oyFTRXc)

atoav 3y ago

There is a line between saying "I am a business person and therefore I don't judge people with different values" and saying "I am a business person and therefore I expect not to be judged for my lack of ethical behavior".

simmerup 3y ago

Like when Twitter declined to remove ISIS propaganda due to their liberal principles

pessimizer 3y ago
ISIS propaganda isn't a crime, and anyone can be smeared as an ISIS propagandist for questioning any military decision or explanation (it's almost exclusively how Anglo-American politics is done these days.) Using unwritten and unconstitutional speech crimes as the benchmark for criminality is scary. Call me when some military contractor is helping jihadists find targets in Syria.
jan3024 3y ago
Yep that liberal company that’s owned by Trump. ISIS is the GOP, they both believe the same things about women.
screenoridesaga 3y ago
[flagged]

legitster 3y ago

As a complication, it's important to state that concentration camps were not against international laws at the time! Pursing racist and eugenic policies was in vogue, and many of Germany's concentration camps were toured and audited by the Red Cross before the war! It's because of the holocaust that we thankfully have changed our collective attitude about such things. But in 1939, people's knowledge of the racial atrocities happening was very restricted, so I don't think we can underrate just how naïve some people where at the time.

marcosdumay 3y ago
I don't think eugenics by means of killing people was ever widely considered moral or even a gray area. What happened a lot at the beginning of WWII was that people didn't know what was happening at the concentration camps. And yes, there were some twisted moral templates at the time based on racism and dehumanization.
- shadowgovt 3y ago
  > I don't think eugenics by means of killing people was ever widely considered moral or even a gray area. Oof, how I wish that were true. You may be interested in Pernick, Martin (1999): The Black Stork: Eugenics and the Death of "Defective" Babies in American Medicine and Motion Pictures since 1915. Several nations (the US included) were well on their way to "Great Society" ideas of shaping the next generation by controlling genetics (be that in who reproduced or who was allowed to live). A lot of experiments ended abruptly when the Allies reached the camps, and a lot of politically-powerful institutions have kicked dirt over their own pasts to try and help people forget that's where we were headed. (Quite a few experiments did not; forced sterilization wasn't outlawed in the US until, IIRC, the eighties).
- xhkkffbf 3y ago
  You might want to read a bit more about Margaret Sanger and her little project called "Planned Parenthood."
xhkkffbf 3y ago
Indeed, the US had their own camps that they filled with Japanese, Germans, Italians and a few others. Of course they were relatively nicer to the people placed in the camps.

marcosdumay 3y ago

Yes, understanding and cooperating with people of very different values can be noble or evil, it depends entirely on what those different values are. Also, legality doesn't have a close relation to morality, so cooperating with people regardless of legality can also be noble or evil.