9 ms·

IBM and the Holocaust

108 points by Zaheer 2y ago

Rinzler89 2y ago
I know this topic resurfaced due to the Googler protest scandal but nothing really changed under the surface since then. A lot of western corporations are still active in Russia today after the invasion. Corporations don't heave a soul or moral compass, they don't care who they hurt or kill, they just follow the money. French concrete corporation Lafarge was caught funding terorism by paying ISIS to leave their concrete trucks lone in Syria and all they got was a fine from the US government. Nestle is responsible for a shit tonne of infant mortality in impoverished nations and IKEA for major deforestation and nothing really happened to them despite preaching how much they care about people and the environemnt. I still maintain my PoV that if the execs were to face jailtime or a trail at The Hague instead of petty corporate fines that become part of the cost of doing business, companies would be a lot more mindful on how humane they earn their money. Bring the downvotes, I made peace with it.
- stuff4ben 2y ago
  Actually things have changed for IBM. Speaking as an IBM employee, but not on behalf of IBM, my team (and I suspect all others) had to identify any work done by Russian IBM employees and then subsequently divested ourselves of those employees and offices during the start of the invasion of Ukraine.
  - throwarussian 2y ago
    Throwaway for obvious reasons. Do you mean that you've "divested" yourselves from the employees of Russian IBM branch or from anyone who's a Russian national? The company I work for is in the process of being acquired by IBM. Even though I'm located in Europe, I have Russian citizenship. Does it mean that I'm also going to be "divested from" after the acquisition is complete?
    - dralley 2y ago
      Not OP, but I believe for most companies including IBM the policy was "anyone residing within Russia who did not wish to or could not relocate outside of Russia" would be terminated. If you did relocate (and I believe some assistance was provided) then you were fine. I work for an IBM subsidary, and to the best of my knowledge this is how it worked. One of my coworkers is a Russian expat (and I believe still citizen) living in Europe and they were unaffected.
- keybored 2y ago
  I’m feeling that this submission might be more apropos of Gaza than the Russian invasion.
  - pphysch 2y ago
    Yeah, the sanctions against Russia were among the most severe in history, and widely observed by Western corporations. That they failed is a different discussion. Meanwhile, BDS is a "hate crime".
    - ilikehurdles 2y ago
      BDS is not a hate crime, but the movement is hateful in the methods it employs. It assumes all Jewish entities are guilty by association, unless they make an effort to proclaim their ideological alignment with anti-Israel ideology. Jews are seen by this movement as Zionist-by-default until they declare otherwise, and it takes a very small amount of circumstantial evidence to be targeted for boycott. We don’t treat other ethnic or religious groups this way. We shouldn’t treat anyone this way.
      - pphysch 2y ago
        I think you are making things up; if not, can you give an example of a "Jewish entity" with no significant links to Israel that was explicitly targeted by BDS? I can give many examples of non-Jewish businesses with links to Israel that have been targeted by BDS.
        ilikehurdles 2y ago
        https://www.adl.org/boston-mapping-project https://www.adl.org/boston-mapping-project Also I never questioned that some targets are non-Jewish. There being some non-Jewish targets who support the self-determination of the people of Israel doesn’t invalidate targets that are placed on synagogues, day cares, schools, community centers, bagel shops, etc on specious grounds.
- spxneo 2y ago
  and Ukraine is still on track to lose the war even after all that sanction Western companies exiting Russia created several Russian billionaires overnight Resulting in more tax revenues and money staying within that country I'm sorry but Western virtue signaling impact is routinely over-exaggerated and actually achieves the complete opposite of what it set out to do
  - dralley 2y ago
    Sanctions do work, but anyone claiming that they would single handedly crush the Russian economy in a matter of months were delusional, especially due to all of the avoidance going on through Turkey and Kazakhstan. Nonetheless, it does add a lot of friction that slowly grinds away at the economy. For example: https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/russias-arctic-lng-2-suspends-gas-liquefaction-amid-sanctions-lack-tankers-2024-04-02/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/russias-arctic-l... https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russia-splashes-12-bln-keep-aviation-sector-air-2023-12-21/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russia-sp... Russia can't sustain autarky on their own, and especially not with their demographics, manpower shortages due to the war, wartime spending, and corruption. Right now they're coasting on what's left of their reserves, but those are finite. Their economy won't outright collapse but it will get more and more inefficient and fragile.
    - spxneo 2y ago
      yet the sanctions are doing little to change the outcome in the battlefield Russia is clearing pulling out ahead and its delusional to think that Ukraine even had a chance to begin with Quantity always wins over quality.
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      >Russia can't sustain autarky on their own, and especially not with their demographics Do you think Ukraine's demographics are doing any better? I live in western Europe and every day I hear Ukrainian on the streets . Wherever you go in Europe, Germany, Luxembourg, Ireland, etc. it's full of Ukrainians (mostly women and youngsters). How do you think Ukraine's chances of success look like when all their women and youngsters are living abroad? Those are you future and they're not where they're needed most but building up other countries future and economies. Ukraine is dying the slow death. If Russia doesn't do it, their demographics will. Even if they "win", the victory gained will be bombed out land hosting mostly scarred men and elderly pensioners. How is that a victory?
- krapp 2y ago
  > Corporations don't heave a soul or moral compass, they just follow the money. It's less true that corporations don't have a soul or moral compass and more so that they reflect the soul and moral compass of their owners. Anti-semitism was common amongst the US business and intellectual classes, and many companies - IBM included - were run by people who sympathized with Hitler's ideals. The uncomfortable truth is that the US and Nazi Germany were a lot more similar in terms of their ideology than the propaganda leads people to believe. Hitler even credited the US' policies of genocide against native Americans, eugenics and racial discrimination as inspiration.
  - timschmidt 2y ago
    See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin for an example of US ideology aligned with Hitler's.
    - tacocataco 2y ago
      The business plot [1] was the potential inflection point in the USA where fascism could have enveloped the nation. (IMO). We got lucky. We STILL are getting lucky. This stuff is why businesses need to be equally owned by the workers that do all the work. That power and wealth is diffused throughout the population, not concentraighted in the hands of a few men with fewer morals. The inequity of our way of life is a existential threat. [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
      - timschmidt 2y ago
        It seems entirely possible that the business plot succeeded, just with someone other than Smedley Butler as the figurehead. Despite Smedley informing congress of the plot, it seems no disciplinary action was taken against the conspirators.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
myth_drannon 2y ago
[flagged]
belligeront 2y ago
Highly recommend listening to this HBR podcast about the same topic. [1] TJ Watson (of IBM) is quoted as saying: “I’m an internationalist. I cooperate with all forms of government, regardless of whether I can subscribe to all of their principles or not.” I hear a lot of similar echos within tech companies right now. People using “we’re a business” to shut down discussion about the role of supplying AI technology to Israel, who has been using AI to choose bombing targets [2]. [1] https://hbr.org/podcast/2019/11/lessons-from-ibm-in-nazi-germany https://hbr.org/podcast/2019/11/lessons-from-ibm-in-nazi-ger... [2] https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/ https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/
- pphysch 2y ago
  > regardless of whether I can subscribe to all of their principles Sure, being able to work with people who have different values is a noble thing. But what about whether or not they observe international law? This is like a business saying "I cooperate with all customers, regardless of their criminal nature". That is a quite different statement.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
    Doesn't that lead to absurdities, though? Like, is McDonald's morally required to avoid serving known fentanyl dealers?
    - pphysch 2y ago
      I think McDonald's would condemn and distance itself from a high-profile customer or partner that was responsible for highly illegal activity like that. Like it did with Russia.
  - SuperHeavy256 2y ago
    Exactly. The CEO is speaking in doublespeak (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP07oyFTRXc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP07oyFTRXc)
  - atoav 2y ago
res0nat0r 2y ago
Good book. Have the hardcover on my bookshelf. Not a fan the cover art design though.
cyclecount 2y ago
Google and Amazon are actively involved in the largest man-made famine since WWII, and we’re not even allowed to discuss it on HN (you know the conflict I’m talking about, every post about the genocide gets flagged immediately).
- keybored 2y ago
  And also submissions that are tangentially related (look up)… EDIT: not flagged any more :)
- megaman821 2y ago
  [flagged]
- dunekid 2y ago
  This is true, It was absolutely ridiculous to see even UN articles getting flagged to death. All the while absolute propaganda were still actively get promoted. An argument can be made that HN has to not keep discussions going to flamewar. I would acknowledge that I have learned much kore about the issues through HN. And it is much more clear to me that the responsibility almost completely lies on the west, both colonial and neo colonial entities there. What is even more surprising is that US under Reagan, of all people, had cut off aid and stabilised Israel aggression much more than the current government. Yet, we have bipartisan support for the apartheid genocide machine when they commit even more cruel crimes against humanity.
- cafard 2y ago
  Ethiopia in the 1980s?
- nojvek 2y ago
  Which one. There’s a few ongoing right now.
myth_drannon 2y ago
[flagged]
- ilikehurdles 2y ago
  [flagged]
Aloha 2y ago
I remember reading this book when it came out in 2002 and the expanded version in 2012. It made a largely circumstantial case for IBM's involvement in the holocaust. Yes - the following things are true: * Germany used IBM Tabulating Equipment to compile its racial census. * Deutsch Reichsbahn used IBM Punched Card equipment to run most of its operations. * The German Government made extensive use of IBM Punched Card equipment to track prisoners, including in the concentration camps. Beyond those three facts the case is basically circumstantial - Black made a bunch of suppositions when drawing his conclusions - * IBM New York knew all of the particulars of use of its tabulating equipment, and what the outcomes would be. * IBM New York had defacto continuing control of its german subsidiary (Dehomag) even after it was functionally nationalized. * IBM New York provided technology and parts thru IBM Geneva. * Profits from Dehomag were funneled thru IBM Geneva to IBM New York. * Most glaringly, he asserts that IBM Punched Card technologies were the only way to do what Nazi Germany did at the scale it did it at. However he makes the assertions without much backing evidence for it, and its all clouded in an aura of leading purple prose. This article presents a pretty concise version of the gaping flaws in the book - https://muse.jhu.edu/article/33853 https://muse.jhu.edu/article/33853 Most notably, the book leaves out important context - even if everything he supposed about IBM were true, what IBM did wasn't unique, it was common corporate practices at the time, indeed, many american corporations had similar subsidiaries, all of whom at a minimum contributed to the german war effort.
- belligeront 2y ago
  He claimed in 2002, after the book was published, to have found additional evidence that IBM established a Polish subsidiary after Germany invaded Poland to sell machines to the Nazi government. https://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/The-business-of-making-the-trains-to-Auschwitz-2821685.php https://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/The-business-of-makin...
- chasil 2y ago
  Though I also read the book, I don't remember the details of DEHOMAG control via Switzerland, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a paper trail of directives from Armonk, NY via the Swiss to maximize DEHOMAG's market. I do remember that Coca-Cola in Germany was not able to use the formula for the eponymous soft drink, and developed Fanta during this time. I do not imagine that much secrecy in tabulating machines was present. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehomag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehomag Looking over the DEHOMAG wiki, there are some curious facts... "Watson had received Order of the German Eagle medal at the Berlin ICC meeting in 1937, but after Nazis' pogroms against Jews started in 1938 Watson himself wanted to distance himself and IBM from Germans but was convinced not to do so by Secretary of State Hull and he gave up the idea until spring of 1940. "Leon Krzemieniecki, the last surviving person involved in the administration of the rail transportation to Auschwitz and Treblinka, stated he knew the punched card machines were not German machines, because the labels were in English. Income from the machines leased in General Government was sent through Geneva to IBM in New York."
rnd0 2y ago
[flagged]
- slater 2y ago
  > I'm flabbergasted at the way it's been adopted by the left now It's not.
- keybored 2y ago
  The far left hasn’t adopted Zionism. Are you saying that “Zionism” doesn’t exist, that it’s something in the imagination of the far left? Benny Morris (e.g.) would disagree.
  - rnd0 2y ago
    Call me old fashioned, but I've only ever heard the term 'Zionism'/zionist bandied about by conspiracy theoriests of the antisemitic variety. I'm saying that the adherents of the far left are finding common cause with the scumbags on the right in their hatred of Jews and Judiasm. And personally, I find it alarming.
    - ilikehurdles 2y ago
      There’s so much Hamas support combined with rank antisemitism at every single “pro” Palestine rally in recent memory [1][2][3]. And it just gets swept under the rug by legacy media. Imagine the outrage if the same exact behavior was documented of anyone identifying as politically on the right. [1]: https://x.com/CitedNeed/status/1781363418156408912 https://x.com/CitedNeed/status/1781363418156408912 [2]: https://x.com/YosephHaddad/status/1781157703961780576 https://x.com/YosephHaddad/status/1781157703961780576 [3]: https://x.com/antisemitism/status/1781032832204214308 https://x.com/antisemitism/status/1781032832204214308
    - weberer 2y ago
      [flagged]
    - keybored 2y ago
      [flagged]
jolj 2y ago
[flagged]
- pphysch 2y ago
  Two things can be true at once. Jewish people and other groups were exterminated by the Nazi regime ~80 years ago, and now Palestinian peoples are getting exterminated by the Zionist regime. If there is any "Holocaust inversion" being done, it's probably by Gilad Erdan who uses his privileged seat at the UN to wield a Nazi-era Star of David patch while rationalizing the bombing of schools and hospitals.
- keybored 2y ago
  Yours is called “two wrongs make a right”.
  - jolj 2y ago
    no it's called antisemitism. it's a long tradition of the western world washing its guilt by pointing their finger at their scapegoat the jew. This time, they try to wash the sin of the holocaust by comparing a small-scale local war to a continent-wide genocide
    - dunekid 2y ago
      A genocide need not be a continent wide phenomenon. Systematically killing people with specific tags based on ethnicity, religion or regional markers are under the purview of it. And for a detailed explanation you can refer to the ICJ ruling on the current one.
      - jolj 2y ago
        The ICJ has not ruled genocide because a trial will takes years and will more importantly require evidence. Accusations of 'genocide' toward Israel involvement in Gaza go back at least to 2006 and resurface in every war. The fact previous wars were of a much smaller extent and none ended in the full or partial destruction of the palestinian people in Gaza. This is why it is merely a narrative that fits perfectly into antisemitic preconceptions and is independent of reality
ngcc_hk 2y ago
Providing x to china will be the same with hindsight.
mixmastamyk 2y ago
While this is an important part of history to know, the story didn't stop there, and certainly not with IBM. Computers/primitive-databases were also used to manage Japanese internment in the US, also using Census data. The Stasi used improved technologies to their advantage until the 80s. You can draw a line from there to the NSA, surveillance capitalism, and the commercial data broker markets of today. It's just a matter of time until the information gets used.
sherburt3 2y ago
If only those engineers at IBM had looked into their crystal ball and known that Adolf Hitler was a bad egg, then they wouldn't have done a census and then everything would be great today.

108 points by Zaheer 2y ago

I know this topic resurfaced due to the Googler protest scandal but nothing really changed under the surface since then. A lot of western corporations are still active in Russia today after the invasion. Corporations don't heave a soul or moral compass, they don't care who they hurt or kill, they just follow the money. French concrete corporation Lafarge was caught funding terorism by paying ISIS to leave their concrete trucks lone in Syria and all they got was a fine from the US government. Nestle is responsible for a shit tonne of infant mortality in impoverished nations and IKEA for major deforestation and nothing really happened to them despite preaching how much they care about people and the environemnt. I still maintain my PoV that if the execs were to face jailtime or a trail at The Hague instead of petty corporate fines that become part of the cost of doing business, companies would be a lot more mindful on how humane they earn their money. Bring the downvotes, I made peace with it.

stuff4ben 2y ago
Actually things have changed for IBM. Speaking as an IBM employee, but not on behalf of IBM, my team (and I suspect all others) had to identify any work done by Russian IBM employees and then subsequently divested ourselves of those employees and offices during the start of the invasion of Ukraine.
- throwarussian 2y ago
  Throwaway for obvious reasons. Do you mean that you've "divested" yourselves from the employees of Russian IBM branch or from anyone who's a Russian national? The company I work for is in the process of being acquired by IBM. Even though I'm located in Europe, I have Russian citizenship. Does it mean that I'm also going to be "divested from" after the acquisition is complete?
  - dralley 2y ago
    Not OP, but I believe for most companies including IBM the policy was "anyone residing within Russia who did not wish to or could not relocate outside of Russia" would be terminated. If you did relocate (and I believe some assistance was provided) then you were fine. I work for an IBM subsidary, and to the best of my knowledge this is how it worked. One of my coworkers is a Russian expat (and I believe still citizen) living in Europe and they were unaffected.
keybored 2y ago
I’m feeling that this submission might be more apropos of Gaza than the Russian invasion.
- pphysch 2y ago
  Yeah, the sanctions against Russia were among the most severe in history, and widely observed by Western corporations. That they failed is a different discussion. Meanwhile, BDS is a "hate crime".
  - ilikehurdles 2y ago
    BDS is not a hate crime, but the movement is hateful in the methods it employs. It assumes all Jewish entities are guilty by association, unless they make an effort to proclaim their ideological alignment with anti-Israel ideology. Jews are seen by this movement as Zionist-by-default until they declare otherwise, and it takes a very small amount of circumstantial evidence to be targeted for boycott. We don’t treat other ethnic or religious groups this way. We shouldn’t treat anyone this way.
    - pphysch 2y ago
      I think you are making things up; if not, can you give an example of a "Jewish entity" with no significant links to Israel that was explicitly targeted by BDS? I can give many examples of non-Jewish businesses with links to Israel that have been targeted by BDS.
      - ilikehurdles 2y ago
        https://www.adl.org/boston-mapping-project https://www.adl.org/boston-mapping-project Also I never questioned that some targets are non-Jewish. There being some non-Jewish targets who support the self-determination of the people of Israel doesn’t invalidate targets that are placed on synagogues, day cares, schools, community centers, bagel shops, etc on specious grounds.
spxneo 2y ago
and Ukraine is still on track to lose the war even after all that sanction Western companies exiting Russia created several Russian billionaires overnight Resulting in more tax revenues and money staying within that country I'm sorry but Western virtue signaling impact is routinely over-exaggerated and actually achieves the complete opposite of what it set out to do
- dralley 2y ago
  Sanctions do work, but anyone claiming that they would single handedly crush the Russian economy in a matter of months were delusional, especially due to all of the avoidance going on through Turkey and Kazakhstan. Nonetheless, it does add a lot of friction that slowly grinds away at the economy. For example: https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/russias-arctic-lng-2-suspends-gas-liquefaction-amid-sanctions-lack-tankers-2024-04-02/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/russias-arctic-l... https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russia-splashes-12-bln-keep-aviation-sector-air-2023-12-21/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russia-sp... Russia can't sustain autarky on their own, and especially not with their demographics, manpower shortages due to the war, wartime spending, and corruption. Right now they're coasting on what's left of their reserves, but those are finite. Their economy won't outright collapse but it will get more and more inefficient and fragile.
  - spxneo 2y ago
    yet the sanctions are doing little to change the outcome in the battlefield Russia is clearing pulling out ahead and its delusional to think that Ukraine even had a chance to begin with Quantity always wins over quality.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >Russia can't sustain autarky on their own, and especially not with their demographics Do you think Ukraine's demographics are doing any better? I live in western Europe and every day I hear Ukrainian on the streets . Wherever you go in Europe, Germany, Luxembourg, Ireland, etc. it's full of Ukrainians (mostly women and youngsters). How do you think Ukraine's chances of success look like when all their women and youngsters are living abroad? Those are you future and they're not where they're needed most but building up other countries future and economies. Ukraine is dying the slow death. If Russia doesn't do it, their demographics will. Even if they "win", the victory gained will be bombed out land hosting mostly scarred men and elderly pensioners. How is that a victory?
krapp 2y ago
> Corporations don't heave a soul or moral compass, they just follow the money. It's less true that corporations don't have a soul or moral compass and more so that they reflect the soul and moral compass of their owners. Anti-semitism was common amongst the US business and intellectual classes, and many companies - IBM included - were run by people who sympathized with Hitler's ideals. The uncomfortable truth is that the US and Nazi Germany were a lot more similar in terms of their ideology than the propaganda leads people to believe. Hitler even credited the US' policies of genocide against native Americans, eugenics and racial discrimination as inspiration.
- timschmidt 2y ago
  See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin for an example of US ideology aligned with Hitler's.
  - tacocataco 2y ago
    The business plot [1] was the potential inflection point in the USA where fascism could have enveloped the nation. (IMO). We got lucky. We STILL are getting lucky. This stuff is why businesses need to be equally owned by the workers that do all the work. That power and wealth is diffused throughout the population, not concentraighted in the hands of a few men with fewer morals. The inequity of our way of life is a existential threat. [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
    - timschmidt 2y ago
      It seems entirely possible that the business plot succeeded, just with someone other than Smedley Butler as the figurehead. Despite Smedley informing congress of the plot, it seems no disciplinary action was taken against the conspirators.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

myth_drannon 2y ago

[flagged]

belligeront 2y ago

Highly recommend listening to this HBR podcast about the same topic. [1] TJ Watson (of IBM) is quoted as saying: “I’m an internationalist. I cooperate with all forms of government, regardless of whether I can subscribe to all of their principles or not.” I hear a lot of similar echos within tech companies right now. People using “we’re a business” to shut down discussion about the role of supplying AI technology to Israel, who has been using AI to choose bombing targets [2]. [1] https://hbr.org/podcast/2019/11/lessons-from-ibm-in-nazi-germany https://hbr.org/podcast/2019/11/lessons-from-ibm-in-nazi-ger... [2] https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/ https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/

pphysch 2y ago
> regardless of whether I can subscribe to all of their principles Sure, being able to work with people who have different values is a noble thing. But what about whether or not they observe international law? This is like a business saying "I cooperate with all customers, regardless of their criminal nature". That is a quite different statement.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  Doesn't that lead to absurdities, though? Like, is McDonald's morally required to avoid serving known fentanyl dealers?
  - pphysch 2y ago
    I think McDonald's would condemn and distance itself from a high-profile customer or partner that was responsible for highly illegal activity like that. Like it did with Russia.
- SuperHeavy256 2y ago
  Exactly. The CEO is speaking in doublespeak (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP07oyFTRXc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP07oyFTRXc)
- atoav 2y ago

res0nat0r 2y ago

Good book. Have the hardcover on my bookshelf. Not a fan the cover art design though.

cyclecount 2y ago

Google and Amazon are actively involved in the largest man-made famine since WWII, and we’re not even allowed to discuss it on HN (you know the conflict I’m talking about, every post about the genocide gets flagged immediately).

keybored 2y ago
And also submissions that are tangentially related (look up)… EDIT: not flagged any more :)
megaman821 2y ago
[flagged]
dunekid 2y ago
This is true, It was absolutely ridiculous to see even UN articles getting flagged to death. All the while absolute propaganda were still actively get promoted. An argument can be made that HN has to not keep discussions going to flamewar. I would acknowledge that I have learned much kore about the issues through HN. And it is much more clear to me that the responsibility almost completely lies on the west, both colonial and neo colonial entities there. What is even more surprising is that US under Reagan, of all people, had cut off aid and stabilised Israel aggression much more than the current government. Yet, we have bipartisan support for the apartheid genocide machine when they commit even more cruel crimes against humanity.
cafard 2y ago
Ethiopia in the 1980s?
nojvek 2y ago
Which one. There’s a few ongoing right now.

myth_drannon 2y ago

[flagged]

ilikehurdles 2y ago
[flagged]

Aloha 2y ago

I remember reading this book when it came out in 2002 and the expanded version in 2012. It made a largely circumstantial case for IBM's involvement in the holocaust. Yes - the following things are true: * Germany used IBM Tabulating Equipment to compile its racial census. * Deutsch Reichsbahn used IBM Punched Card equipment to run most of its operations. * The German Government made extensive use of IBM Punched Card equipment to track prisoners, including in the concentration camps. Beyond those three facts the case is basically circumstantial - Black made a bunch of suppositions when drawing his conclusions - * IBM New York knew all of the particulars of use of its tabulating equipment, and what the outcomes would be. * IBM New York had defacto continuing control of its german subsidiary (Dehomag) even after it was functionally nationalized. * IBM New York provided technology and parts thru IBM Geneva. * Profits from Dehomag were funneled thru IBM Geneva to IBM New York. * Most glaringly, he asserts that IBM Punched Card technologies were the only way to do what Nazi Germany did at the scale it did it at. However he makes the assertions without much backing evidence for it, and its all clouded in an aura of leading purple prose. This article presents a pretty concise version of the gaping flaws in the book - https://muse.jhu.edu/article/33853 https://muse.jhu.edu/article/33853 Most notably, the book leaves out important context - even if everything he supposed about IBM were true, what IBM did wasn't unique, it was common corporate practices at the time, indeed, many american corporations had similar subsidiaries, all of whom at a minimum contributed to the german war effort.

belligeront 2y ago
He claimed in 2002, after the book was published, to have found additional evidence that IBM established a Polish subsidiary after Germany invaded Poland to sell machines to the Nazi government. https://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/The-business-of-making-the-trains-to-Auschwitz-2821685.php https://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/The-business-of-makin...
chasil 2y ago
Though I also read the book, I don't remember the details of DEHOMAG control via Switzerland, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a paper trail of directives from Armonk, NY via the Swiss to maximize DEHOMAG's market. I do remember that Coca-Cola in Germany was not able to use the formula for the eponymous soft drink, and developed Fanta during this time. I do not imagine that much secrecy in tabulating machines was present. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehomag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehomag Looking over the DEHOMAG wiki, there are some curious facts... "Watson had received Order of the German Eagle medal at the Berlin ICC meeting in 1937, but after Nazis' pogroms against Jews started in 1938 Watson himself wanted to distance himself and IBM from Germans but was convinced not to do so by Secretary of State Hull and he gave up the idea until spring of 1940. "Leon Krzemieniecki, the last surviving person involved in the administration of the rail transportation to Auschwitz and Treblinka, stated he knew the punched card machines were not German machines, because the labels were in English. Income from the machines leased in General Government was sent through Geneva to IBM in New York."

rnd0 2y ago

[flagged]

slater 2y ago
> I'm flabbergasted at the way it's been adopted by the left now It's not.
keybored 2y ago
The far left hasn’t adopted Zionism. Are you saying that “Zionism” doesn’t exist, that it’s something in the imagination of the far left? Benny Morris (e.g.) would disagree.
- rnd0 2y ago
  Call me old fashioned, but I've only ever heard the term 'Zionism'/zionist bandied about by conspiracy theoriests of the antisemitic variety. I'm saying that the adherents of the far left are finding common cause with the scumbags on the right in their hatred of Jews and Judiasm. And personally, I find it alarming.
  - ilikehurdles 2y ago
    There’s so much Hamas support combined with rank antisemitism at every single “pro” Palestine rally in recent memory [1][2][3]. And it just gets swept under the rug by legacy media. Imagine the outrage if the same exact behavior was documented of anyone identifying as politically on the right. [1]: https://x.com/CitedNeed/status/1781363418156408912 https://x.com/CitedNeed/status/1781363418156408912 [2]: https://x.com/YosephHaddad/status/1781157703961780576 https://x.com/YosephHaddad/status/1781157703961780576 [3]: https://x.com/antisemitism/status/1781032832204214308 https://x.com/antisemitism/status/1781032832204214308
  - weberer 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - keybored 2y ago
    [flagged]

jolj 2y ago

[flagged]

pphysch 2y ago
Two things can be true at once. Jewish people and other groups were exterminated by the Nazi regime ~80 years ago, and now Palestinian peoples are getting exterminated by the Zionist regime. If there is any "Holocaust inversion" being done, it's probably by Gilad Erdan who uses his privileged seat at the UN to wield a Nazi-era Star of David patch while rationalizing the bombing of schools and hospitals.
keybored 2y ago
Yours is called “two wrongs make a right”.
- jolj 2y ago
  no it's called antisemitism. it's a long tradition of the western world washing its guilt by pointing their finger at their scapegoat the jew. This time, they try to wash the sin of the holocaust by comparing a small-scale local war to a continent-wide genocide
  - dunekid 2y ago
    A genocide need not be a continent wide phenomenon. Systematically killing people with specific tags based on ethnicity, religion or regional markers are under the purview of it. And for a detailed explanation you can refer to the ICJ ruling on the current one.
    - jolj 2y ago
      The ICJ has not ruled genocide because a trial will takes years and will more importantly require evidence. Accusations of 'genocide' toward Israel involvement in Gaza go back at least to 2006 and resurface in every war. The fact previous wars were of a much smaller extent and none ended in the full or partial destruction of the palestinian people in Gaza. This is why it is merely a narrative that fits perfectly into antisemitic preconceptions and is independent of reality

ngcc_hk 2y ago

Providing x to china will be the same with hindsight.

mixmastamyk 2y ago

While this is an important part of history to know, the story didn't stop there, and certainly not with IBM. Computers/primitive-databases were also used to manage Japanese internment in the US, also using Census data. The Stasi used improved technologies to their advantage until the 80s. You can draw a line from there to the NSA, surveillance capitalism, and the commercial data broker markets of today. It's just a matter of time until the information gets used.

sherburt3 2y ago

If only those engineers at IBM had looked into their crystal ball and known that Adolf Hitler was a bad egg, then they wouldn't have done a census and then everything would be great today.