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How much does Microsoft make from being able to tie logged-in user behavior to a particular email address? It seems the answer is "a lot," from the ever-increa

by Syonyk 2y ago

How much does Microsoft make from being able to tie logged-in user behavior to a particular email address? It seems the answer is "a lot," from the ever-increasing hostility to offline/local only accounts. Every time I have to touch Windows, it seems there's some new, shiny, irritating thing I have to dismiss. I want my operating systems to run things I tell them to, not try to drag me into their clicktrap ecosystem, or randomly reinstall "free to play" games, etc. I'm aware I can disable this stuff, but I shouldn't have to. And it's annoyed me enough over the years that I no longer run Windows on the iron on anything - even games are "decent enough" under Linux now.

downrightmike 2y ago
They are doing it, far more than you'd expect. "Thanks to the GDPR, users in Europe who download the Outlook for Windows app, will be greeted with a modal pop-up dialog that displays a user agreement and requires its users to consent. The breathtaking aspect of this is that the dialog starts right out stating: “We and 772 third parties process data to: store and/or access information on your device, develop and improve products, personalize ads and content, measure ads and content, derive audience insights, obtain precise geolocation data, and identify users through device scanning.” https://borncity.com/win/2024/01/18/new-outlook-app-monitoring-and-surveillance-tool-for-targeted-advertising/#:~:text=We%20and%20772%20third%20parties,identify%20users%20through%20device%20scanning https://borncity.com/win/2024/01/18/new-outlook-app-monitori....
- Syonyk 2y ago
  Good, in that they were forced to say the quiet part out loud! But 772? For an email client? No, sorry, my email behavior is not that many people's business.
  - Sharlin 2y ago
    TBH, a number like that pretty much seems to be what you get by default when you include any third-party ad system to your site these days. I doubt even the ad company realized how many "partners" they have until they were forced to start counting them.
- switch007 2y ago
  And 99% of users will now give their explicit consent (due to cookie banner fatigue and/or not caring because they don't want to pay), and probably to more than before, rather than it being a grey area Thanks, GDPR, and the law of unintended consequences!
wintermutestwin 2y ago
The joke’s on them because I have relegated my windows box to gaming only. When another OS meets my gaming needs, microsoft’s os will be finally gone from my network.
- Syonyk 2y ago
  What are you playing? I was shocked just how many things work well with Steam on Linux (Ubuntu LTS is what I run). I'm not a big fan of the "aggressively online, kernel anti-cheat" stuff, which I consider malware in a shiny package, but I've been surprised by just how well stuff works, either natively (more than I'd have expected), or with Proton.
  - Cieric 2y ago
    Not the GP, but the areas I use windows still for gaming is VR since I apparently have to do a lot of hacks to get it to work on my system that I'm not willing to try and fail. And then I play Lethal Company and similar, but that starts to struggle and have problem when you want to do anything modded since the modding tool available have trouble with it not being windows and break often when run though proton/wine. I've eventually got it to work, but only with hacky work arounds like changing the launch options in steam since the "Start Modded" button refused to work. I think most things running in electron fail to run through proton/wine right now (on my machine at least.) In the end if I was playing a game alone I'd hack on it for days just to get it working so I can enjoy it on linux (hacking away at the game specifically not the linux install like needed for VR). But when I want to play a game with friends spending days (or even hours) isn't an option since they'll be onto something else by then.
    - Shared404 2y ago
      I'm using r2modman on Arch for Lethal Company and RoR2, has that worked for you? I have it and steam installed from the AUR/Repo's, I suspect flatpak would cause issues. I definitely get just keeping windows around. I'm lucky enough that things usually have Just Worked, and I don't use VR.
ryandrake 2y ago
Same thing with Windows Mail. I just got a message telling me, "We've decided to move you to Outlook (which I don't want) instead of the Windows Mail client that you're happily using." Now I've got to go searching for the magical wizard spell I need to cast in order to stop it from doing this. I really wish a Windows Product Manager could comment here and explain why the hell they keep doing this shit despite the user not wanting any of it. I know they won't. They're ashamed of what they are doing, and/or hide behind some "do not post online" corporate policy. Why can't operating systems just stay out of the user's way? Go schedule the CPU, manage the filesystem and network peripherals, and stop with the user behavior modification experiments.
- ComputerGuru 2y ago
  I switched back a few times but it keeps doing it automatically more and more frequently, and the new app is absolutely crippled and hideously slow (all operations are over the network and the latency is insane). I just switched back to Thunderbird (which I haven't used since the 00s) instead. It's still ugly, but it isn't getting in my way.
  - cynicalsecurity 2y ago
    In which way is Thunderbird ugly?
    - ComputerGuru 2y ago
      Ugly visually and ergonomically. Default choice of fonts, mishmash of visual styles from across decades of development in the various widgets, non-native/non-pixel-aligned font rendering, context menus that relegate the most common actions to submenus while elevating actions that you're not going to use as much, alignment issues abound, use of modal dialogs for things that are taking place in the background and should be progress bar widgets instead, dialogs that need focus being placed under dialogs that can't be used until the backgrounded dialog is interacted with, etc.
    - Syonyk 2y ago
carlosjobim 2y ago
There are two reasons why anybody would buy a Windows computer: 1. Price 2. Some Windows-only software they need to use. So until Apple lowers prices on their computers to compete with the cheapest (never), Microsoft can treat their customers however they please.
- api 2y ago
  Does Apple not realize that they could destroy MS right now by cutting their Mac prices.
  - polski-g 2y ago
    Apple realizes they could not do this, because Windows is popular because Windows apps only run on Windows.
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    In a way they've done that with the iPhone. There are a lot (billions?) of people who would have bought a computer, but got a smart phone instead.
- binkHN 2y ago
  You forgot one: 3. Linux is not a pre-installed option in some countries.
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    Ah, year of the Linux desktop... I'd like for Linux to be an option for desktop computing, but it is not and will never be. Non-enthusiasts are not able to troubleshoot problems in Linux.
    - binkHN 2y ago
      > Non-enthusiasts are not able to troubleshoot problems in Linux. Fair, but that does not really reflect the HN crowd. That said, at the rate MS is going, ChromeOS is looking like the better deal, and, surprisingly, it has less nagging/ads than Windows does!
gigel82 2y ago
It's mostly about lock-in I imagine. Default save to OneDrive in Office apps goes right along. In the future, Windows itself will be running in the cloud, further locking you into their ecosystem and subscriptions.
dvfjsdhgfv 2y ago
> I'm aware I can disable this stuff It's not that simple. * You can disable some of that stuff, but not all * Some of your preferences will be reset with the next update * Some of your preferences will be reset at random * Some new stuff will be introduced and you will need to disable it individually * As for some stuff, you will never know unless someone smart figures out something grey is going on under the hood, publishes their research, this research reaches you, and you decide to act on it

by Syonyk 2y ago

downrightmike 2y ago

They are doing it, far more than you'd expect. "Thanks to the GDPR, users in Europe who download the Outlook for Windows app, will be greeted with a modal pop-up dialog that displays a user agreement and requires its users to consent. The breathtaking aspect of this is that the dialog starts right out stating: “We and 772 third parties process data to: store and/or access information on your device, develop and improve products, personalize ads and content, measure ads and content, derive audience insights, obtain precise geolocation data, and identify users through device scanning.” https://borncity.com/win/2024/01/18/new-outlook-app-monitoring-and-surveillance-tool-for-targeted-advertising/#:~:text=We%20and%20772%20third%20parties,identify%20users%20through%20device%20scanning https://borncity.com/win/2024/01/18/new-outlook-app-monitori....

Syonyk 2y ago
Good, in that they were forced to say the quiet part out loud! But 772? For an email client? No, sorry, my email behavior is not that many people's business.
- Sharlin 2y ago
  TBH, a number like that pretty much seems to be what you get by default when you include any third-party ad system to your site these days. I doubt even the ad company realized how many "partners" they have until they were forced to start counting them.
switch007 2y ago
And 99% of users will now give their explicit consent (due to cookie banner fatigue and/or not caring because they don't want to pay), and probably to more than before, rather than it being a grey area Thanks, GDPR, and the law of unintended consequences!

wintermutestwin 2y ago

The joke’s on them because I have relegated my windows box to gaming only. When another OS meets my gaming needs, microsoft’s os will be finally gone from my network.

Syonyk 2y ago
What are you playing? I was shocked just how many things work well with Steam on Linux (Ubuntu LTS is what I run). I'm not a big fan of the "aggressively online, kernel anti-cheat" stuff, which I consider malware in a shiny package, but I've been surprised by just how well stuff works, either natively (more than I'd have expected), or with Proton.
- Cieric 2y ago
  Not the GP, but the areas I use windows still for gaming is VR since I apparently have to do a lot of hacks to get it to work on my system that I'm not willing to try and fail. And then I play Lethal Company and similar, but that starts to struggle and have problem when you want to do anything modded since the modding tool available have trouble with it not being windows and break often when run though proton/wine. I've eventually got it to work, but only with hacky work arounds like changing the launch options in steam since the "Start Modded" button refused to work. I think most things running in electron fail to run through proton/wine right now (on my machine at least.) In the end if I was playing a game alone I'd hack on it for days just to get it working so I can enjoy it on linux (hacking away at the game specifically not the linux install like needed for VR). But when I want to play a game with friends spending days (or even hours) isn't an option since they'll be onto something else by then.
  - Shared404 2y ago
    I'm using r2modman on Arch for Lethal Company and RoR2, has that worked for you? I have it and steam installed from the AUR/Repo's, I suspect flatpak would cause issues. I definitely get just keeping windows around. I'm lucky enough that things usually have Just Worked, and I don't use VR.

ryandrake 2y ago

Same thing with Windows Mail. I just got a message telling me, "We've decided to move you to Outlook (which I don't want) instead of the Windows Mail client that you're happily using." Now I've got to go searching for the magical wizard spell I need to cast in order to stop it from doing this. I really wish a Windows Product Manager could comment here and explain why the hell they keep doing this shit despite the user not wanting any of it. I know they won't. They're ashamed of what they are doing, and/or hide behind some "do not post online" corporate policy. Why can't operating systems just stay out of the user's way? Go schedule the CPU, manage the filesystem and network peripherals, and stop with the user behavior modification experiments.

ComputerGuru 2y ago
I switched back a few times but it keeps doing it automatically more and more frequently, and the new app is absolutely crippled and hideously slow (all operations are over the network and the latency is insane). I just switched back to Thunderbird (which I haven't used since the 00s) instead. It's still ugly, but it isn't getting in my way.
- cynicalsecurity 2y ago
  In which way is Thunderbird ugly?
  - ComputerGuru 2y ago
    Ugly visually and ergonomically. Default choice of fonts, mishmash of visual styles from across decades of development in the various widgets, non-native/non-pixel-aligned font rendering, context menus that relegate the most common actions to submenus while elevating actions that you're not going to use as much, alignment issues abound, use of modal dialogs for things that are taking place in the background and should be progress bar widgets instead, dialogs that need focus being placed under dialogs that can't be used until the backgrounded dialog is interacted with, etc.
  - Syonyk 2y ago

carlosjobim 2y ago

There are two reasons why anybody would buy a Windows computer: 1. Price 2. Some Windows-only software they need to use. So until Apple lowers prices on their computers to compete with the cheapest (never), Microsoft can treat their customers however they please.

api 2y ago
Does Apple not realize that they could destroy MS right now by cutting their Mac prices.
- polski-g 2y ago
  Apple realizes they could not do this, because Windows is popular because Windows apps only run on Windows.
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  In a way they've done that with the iPhone. There are a lot (billions?) of people who would have bought a computer, but got a smart phone instead.
binkHN 2y ago
You forgot one: 3. Linux is not a pre-installed option in some countries.
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  Ah, year of the Linux desktop... I'd like for Linux to be an option for desktop computing, but it is not and will never be. Non-enthusiasts are not able to troubleshoot problems in Linux.
  - binkHN 2y ago
    > Non-enthusiasts are not able to troubleshoot problems in Linux. Fair, but that does not really reflect the HN crowd. That said, at the rate MS is going, ChromeOS is looking like the better deal, and, surprisingly, it has less nagging/ads than Windows does!

gigel82 2y ago

It's mostly about lock-in I imagine. Default save to OneDrive in Office apps goes right along. In the future, Windows itself will be running in the cloud, further locking you into their ecosystem and subscriptions.

dvfjsdhgfv 2y ago

> I'm aware I can disable this stuff It's not that simple. * You can disable some of that stuff, but not all * Some of your preferences will be reset with the next update * Some of your preferences will be reset at random * Some new stuff will be introduced and you will need to disable it individually * As for some stuff, you will never know unless someone smart figures out something grey is going on under the hood, publishes their research, this research reaches you, and you decide to act on it