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John Gruber’s take should make folks think twice about what’s going on here: “”” What makes this all the more outrageous is that many major publishers in the E

John Gruber’s take should make folks think twice about what’s going on here: “”” What makes this all the more outrageous is that many major publishers in the EU use this exact same “pay or OK” model to achieve GDPR compliance — and none offer a free alternative with non-targeted ads. Don’t hold your breath waiting for Der Spiegel to offer free access without ads. Christ, they don’t even let you look at their homepage without paying or consenting to targeted ads. And Spotify quite literally brags about its ad targeting. But Spotify is an EU company, so of course it wasn’t designated as a “gatekeeper” by the protection racketeers running the European Commission. They’re not saying “pay or OK” is illegal. They’re saying it’s illegal only if you’re a big company from outside the EU with a very popular platform. “”” https://daringfireball.net/2024/04/edpb_meta_pay_or_ok https://daringfireball.net/2024/04/edpb_meta_pay_or_ok

cess11 3y ago
He could have checked whether Spotify is hunted by data protection authorities before he claimed they don't. I wonder why he didn't. https://www.edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2023/imy-issues-administrative-fine-against-spotify-shortcomings-regarding_en https://www.edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2023/imy-issue...
- otterley 3y ago
  He didn't say that Spotify had never been investigated or found liable for misbehavior. He said that Spotify is permitted (as of now) to continue to target its ads and content, which is true.
  - cess11 3y ago
    Read again, he's very clear in his claim that the GDPR is a 'protection racket' aimed at corporations outside of the EU. It's obvious that he is running some kind of grift relying on the audience being ignorant of EU law and its application.
    - otterley 3y ago
      What did he or I say that was factually incorrect?
      - cess11 3y ago
        What do you mean, "factually"?
littlestymaar 3y ago
The fact that the EU commission doesn't have the political leverage to protect its citizens against the greed of European corporations (because member states oppose that) is a pity, but we should still rejoice to see they at least have the leverage against the worst offenders because they don't have enough political power in the EU to protect their malpractices.
bluelu 3y ago
They explicitly added an exception later on for newspapers (See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38114111 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38114111)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ajmurmann 3y ago
  Well, if they made the bizarrely uneven application of law explicit, it's all cool...
- gpderetta 3y ago
  Sorry, I don't see in that thread where the exception is coming from. Can you be more explicit?
- fransje26 3y ago
  No. It is just as illegal for newspapers. https://noyb.eu/en/pay-or-okay-tech-news-site-heisede-illegal-decides-german-dpa https://noyb.eu/en/pay-or-okay-tech-news-site-heisede-illega...
  - em-bee 3y ago
    this article is a year old, but heise hasn't changed their model. so what is it going to take for that to change? i have been arguing against this for some time and i am glad to finally see some support, but more work is needed.
    - fransje26 3y ago
      It's going to take the heavy hammer of the European Commission to fall on them with a significant fine before they do anything about it. Unfortunately, with so many misbehaving players, that seems to take some time.. But from the fines I read about, once it falls, it falls painfully. Their choice.
basisword 3y ago
I put little stock in Gruber’s takes. He should stick to the Apple rumours. If he has a problem with DerSpiegel he should make a complaint. Not only that, but this ruling is setting a precedent - it doesn’t only apply to Meta but instead applies to the consent or pay model generally. Only time will tell the consequences of the ruling.
- otterley 3y ago
  > it doesn’t only apply to Meta but instead applies to the consent or pay model generally. No it doesn't. He points out, correctly, that there are EU companies that are doing so now, aren't being threatened, and will probably continue to be permitted to do so.
  - pschuegr 3y ago
    Doesn't the EU law have a size requirement for the userbase before it ratchets up? that seems like a reasonable way to apply this law without unduly burdening small companies.
    - otterley 3y ago
      The problem is that it penalizes success and keeps companies small. If your company grows from small to large using personalized ads, you'll suddenly find it subject to this law, and then it has to change its business model. That's incredibly disruptive and discourages growth.
      - sime2009 3y ago
        There is no company size threshold here. This is GDPR related. You and Gruber are both mixing up GDPR with the EU's Digital Markets Act. Digital Markets is the one which has a "gatekeeper" concept tied to company size and market power.
        otterley 3y ago
        Nobody is confused here. The point is, there's not a single European company that is impacted by the "pay or OK" demand, and it's a fair question as to whether there ever will be.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Macha 3y ago
Why did they take so long to act against Facebook? People here were complaining about how little teeth it had against the big players, until they moved against the big players. Now they're claiming how little teeth it has against the long tail. Their time will come too.
xyzzy_plugh 3y ago
This is a pretty bad take, borderline disingenuous. Spotify is certainly not a "gatekeeper" -- I don't think Spotify is comparable to Facebook by any measure really. Is Der Spiegel a "large online platform?" I suspect not. It's actually quite simple: they have to not violate the rights of their users. They proposed legislation explicitly targets large online platforms that offer users no choice but to pay to uphold their rights. It's practically extortion.
- orwin 3y ago
  Also, he's lying about Spotify not being treated like Facebook in that case (for data protection). Other people here try the same idiotic take on Rgpd 'protectionism' but do not even think to look at active Rgpd cases. This guy is worse though, directly talking about Spotify and didn't bother to check, if you cannot be trusted to do basic research on your arguments, on your own blog, you shouldn't be listened to.
  - otterley 3y ago
    What is he specifically saying that is false?
    - orwin 3y ago
      > They’re not saying “pay or OK” is illegal. They’re saying it’s illegal only if you’re a big company from outside the EU with a very popular platform Spotify case:https://www.edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2023/imy-issues-administrative-fine-against-spotify-shortcomings-regarding_en https://www.edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2023/imy-issue...
      - otterley 3y ago
        That case has nothing to do with the "pay or OK" question. The key issue there was "how Spotify handles the right for individuals to access their personal data."
  - threatofrain 3y ago
akmarinov 3y ago
Gruber has been wildly out of touch for years now. He's claiming remote work doesn't work when he's worked remotely his whole life. He's raging against the EU even though it gets us concrete results that we would've never had otherwise, the very least being Emulators and Game Streaming apps. He has a lot of "old man yelling at cloud" energy.
gpderetta 3y ago
As far as I can tell, the EDBP opinion[1] is a general one, and not Meta/FB specific (which are mentioned only in one footnote). edit: it is actually for Large Online Platforms, which probably won't include newspapers. [1] https://www.edpb.europa.eu/system/files/2024-04/edpb_opinion_202408_consentorpay_en.pdf https://www.edpb.europa.eu/system/files/2024-04/edpb_opinion...
TheCoelacanth 3y ago
Meta's revenue last year was $135 billion. Der Spiegel's revenue rounds to $0 billion. They don't have resources to directly take on every company. Obviously they should be going after the biggest offenders first. Smaller companies will get in line once the precedent is set.

cess11 3y ago

He could have checked whether Spotify is hunted by data protection authorities before he claimed they don't. I wonder why he didn't. https://www.edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2023/imy-issues-administrative-fine-against-spotify-shortcomings-regarding_en https://www.edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2023/imy-issue...

otterley 3y ago
He didn't say that Spotify had never been investigated or found liable for misbehavior. He said that Spotify is permitted (as of now) to continue to target its ads and content, which is true.
- cess11 3y ago
  Read again, he's very clear in his claim that the GDPR is a 'protection racket' aimed at corporations outside of the EU. It's obvious that he is running some kind of grift relying on the audience being ignorant of EU law and its application.
  - otterley 3y ago
    What did he or I say that was factually incorrect?
    - cess11 3y ago
      What do you mean, "factually"?

littlestymaar 3y ago

The fact that the EU commission doesn't have the political leverage to protect its citizens against the greed of European corporations (because member states oppose that) is a pity, but we should still rejoice to see they at least have the leverage against the worst offenders because they don't have enough political power in the EU to protect their malpractices.

bluelu 3y ago

They explicitly added an exception later on for newspapers (See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38114111 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38114111)

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ajmurmann 3y ago
Well, if they made the bizarrely uneven application of law explicit, it's all cool...
gpderetta 3y ago
Sorry, I don't see in that thread where the exception is coming from. Can you be more explicit?
fransje26 3y ago
No. It is just as illegal for newspapers. https://noyb.eu/en/pay-or-okay-tech-news-site-heisede-illegal-decides-german-dpa https://noyb.eu/en/pay-or-okay-tech-news-site-heisede-illega...
- em-bee 3y ago
  this article is a year old, but heise hasn't changed their model. so what is it going to take for that to change? i have been arguing against this for some time and i am glad to finally see some support, but more work is needed.
  - fransje26 3y ago
    It's going to take the heavy hammer of the European Commission to fall on them with a significant fine before they do anything about it. Unfortunately, with so many misbehaving players, that seems to take some time.. But from the fines I read about, once it falls, it falls painfully. Their choice.

basisword 3y ago

I put little stock in Gruber’s takes. He should stick to the Apple rumours. If he has a problem with DerSpiegel he should make a complaint. Not only that, but this ruling is setting a precedent - it doesn’t only apply to Meta but instead applies to the consent or pay model generally. Only time will tell the consequences of the ruling.

otterley 3y ago
> it doesn’t only apply to Meta but instead applies to the consent or pay model generally. No it doesn't. He points out, correctly, that there are EU companies that are doing so now, aren't being threatened, and will probably continue to be permitted to do so.
- pschuegr 3y ago
  Doesn't the EU law have a size requirement for the userbase before it ratchets up? that seems like a reasonable way to apply this law without unduly burdening small companies.
  - otterley 3y ago
    The problem is that it penalizes success and keeps companies small. If your company grows from small to large using personalized ads, you'll suddenly find it subject to this law, and then it has to change its business model. That's incredibly disruptive and discourages growth.
    - sime2009 3y ago
      There is no company size threshold here. This is GDPR related. You and Gruber are both mixing up GDPR with the EU's Digital Markets Act. Digital Markets is the one which has a "gatekeeper" concept tied to company size and market power.
      - otterley 3y ago
        Nobody is confused here. The point is, there's not a single European company that is impacted by the "pay or OK" demand, and it's a fair question as to whether there ever will be.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Macha 3y ago

Why did they take so long to act against Facebook? People here were complaining about how little teeth it had against the big players, until they moved against the big players. Now they're claiming how little teeth it has against the long tail. Their time will come too.

xyzzy_plugh 3y ago

This is a pretty bad take, borderline disingenuous. Spotify is certainly not a "gatekeeper" -- I don't think Spotify is comparable to Facebook by any measure really. Is Der Spiegel a "large online platform?" I suspect not. It's actually quite simple: they have to not violate the rights of their users. They proposed legislation explicitly targets large online platforms that offer users no choice but to pay to uphold their rights. It's practically extortion.

orwin 3y ago
Also, he's lying about Spotify not being treated like Facebook in that case (for data protection). Other people here try the same idiotic take on Rgpd 'protectionism' but do not even think to look at active Rgpd cases. This guy is worse though, directly talking about Spotify and didn't bother to check, if you cannot be trusted to do basic research on your arguments, on your own blog, you shouldn't be listened to.
- otterley 3y ago
  What is he specifically saying that is false?
  - orwin 3y ago
    > They’re not saying “pay or OK” is illegal. They’re saying it’s illegal only if you’re a big company from outside the EU with a very popular platform Spotify case:https://www.edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2023/imy-issues-administrative-fine-against-spotify-shortcomings-regarding_en https://www.edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2023/imy-issue...
    - otterley 3y ago
      That case has nothing to do with the "pay or OK" question. The key issue there was "how Spotify handles the right for individuals to access their personal data."
- threatofrain 3y ago

akmarinov 3y ago

Gruber has been wildly out of touch for years now. He's claiming remote work doesn't work when he's worked remotely his whole life. He's raging against the EU even though it gets us concrete results that we would've never had otherwise, the very least being Emulators and Game Streaming apps. He has a lot of "old man yelling at cloud" energy.

gpderetta 3y ago

As far as I can tell, the EDBP opinion[1] is a general one, and not Meta/FB specific (which are mentioned only in one footnote). edit: it is actually for Large Online Platforms, which probably won't include newspapers. [1] https://www.edpb.europa.eu/system/files/2024-04/edpb_opinion_202408_consentorpay_en.pdf https://www.edpb.europa.eu/system/files/2024-04/edpb_opinion...

TheCoelacanth 3y ago

Meta's revenue last year was $135 billion. Der Spiegel's revenue rounds to $0 billion. They don't have resources to directly take on every company. Obviously they should be going after the biggest offenders first. Smaller companies will get in line once the precedent is set.