10 ms·

Cosmic Desktop: Hammering Out New Cosmic Features

207 points by pantalaimon 3y ago

hkwerf 3y ago
It's good to see that it still seems to be reasonable to create new compositors. The amount and diversity of requirements regarding this type of software seems to be still managable. That was one of the concerns I had regarding giving up Xorg.
mrmlz 3y ago
I've been using linux for some 15-20 years depending on how you count. The last 3 i've been using PopOs! as a complete windows replacement. Gaming works great (with the usual caveats) and everything has been a pleasant experience. I've never been a gnome fan almost always switching to xfce but on PopOs! its alright! I'm very much looking forward being able to drop Gnome and use Cosmic instead - having thumbnailsupport is going to be an improvement.
- thrawaway3292 3y ago
  > having thumbnailsupport is going to be an improvement What is this referring to?
  - unwind 3y ago
    Probably this [1] bug which was pretty high-profile. [1]: https://www.omglinux.com/gnome-thumbnails-file-picker/ https://www.omglinux.com/gnome-thumbnails-file-picker/
- Perizors 3y ago
  Afaik thumbnails have already been fixed in gnome
  - mrmlz 3y ago
    https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/4379 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/4379 Do they actually generate a thumbnail or do they just show the available ones? Honestly I don't follow the issue I just know that thumbnails have been an absolute mess in gnome as long as I remember.
    - NekkoDroid 3y ago
      > Do they actually generate a thumbnail or do they just show the available ones? I haven't tested it, but either way the current plan is to replace the GTK file picker with Nautilus in a "file picker" mode. So if it is a problem it should in theory be fixed with that. https://discourse.gnome.org/t/planning-filechooser-portal-implementation-with-nautilus/20335 https://discourse.gnome.org/t/planning-filechooser-portal-im...
      - mrmlz 3y ago
        The year of the linux desktop is closing in! :) Well its good that they are working on it.
tigerlily 3y ago
Vaguely related I'm finding UIs are so flat, we must be getting close to single gold atom thickness. I wonder when bevels and skeumorphs will be back? These days there's tons of nostalgia for 90s magazine style serifs, but without the gonzo UI. What gives?
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  Came to say almost exactly that. It’s interesting how much nostalgia there is for peak 90s UI, but not even Linux distros can escape the flat, uncontrasting, large padding interfaces.
  - voxadam 3y ago
    I don't know about anyone else but in my mind the best UIs of the 90s were all pretty much created by or heavily influenced by Kai Krause.[0][1] The interfaces for Kai's Power Tools[2] and and Bryce[3] are pure 90s nostalgia for me. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Krause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Krause [1] http://kai.sub.blue/ http://kai.sub.blue/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai%27s_Power_Tools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai%27s_Power_Tools [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryce_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryce_(software)
    - colordrops 3y ago
      I love when people activate regions of my brain that have been dormant for 30 years.
  - logicprog 3y ago
    Probably because most people actually prefer them, now that the vast majority of people are past the point of needing skeumorphic metaphors to understand user interfaces, because we grew up with computers. I would certainly throw my computer out and go live in the woods if I had to deal with beveled, gradiented garbage with dense, tiny interfaces cluttered with stuff with no proper spacing to let it breathe. When I upgraded mg family computer from Vista to 8 as a kid, or when iOS went from skeumorphic to flat a bit later, I was so relieved, it was like getting a cold glass of water.
jchoksi 3y ago
I am looking forward to trying this. Currently use KDE(Wayland) and was looking to move to Wayfire as I really don't need all the things being offered in KDE and Wayfire satisfied all my needs from a WM/Compositor.
CarVac 3y ago
> Dragging your cursor to a window’s title bar to move it takes an unneeded level of precision. To maintain focus — as well as comfort on trackpads — simply clicking any region of a window while holding Super will allow dragging it to your preferred location and quickly get back to your important task. On most Linux DEs you hold Alt for that...
- skerit 3y ago
  I remapped it to Super in Gnome, makes more sense. But I do consider this to be an essential feature
- exe34 3y ago
  Oh so now I need both hands to move a window? Thanks.
  - abhinavk 3y ago
    What you get is an option.
  - eviks 3y ago
    What does your other hand do when you're moving a window?
    - dopp0 3y ago
      you know... stuff!
    - exe34 3y ago
      Do you really want to know? Holds up my chin.
  - darthrupert 3y ago
    What is your other hand busy with?
- beepbooptheory 3y ago
  The context here though is trying to make a friendlier i3/sway type wm. This is exactly the behavior we have for those with floating windows.
honeybadger1 3y ago
I was working with a product designer as a UI/UX test subject a few years back before the first release of Cosmic. What a long way it has came since then! I am a huge fun of the effort put in to PopOS to make Linux interesting to the average desktop user.
curt15 3y ago
What's the SDK story for Cosmic? Do they provide an alternative to GTK/Glib/GIO?
- mmstick76 3y ago
  libadwaita/GTK4 is to GNOME what libcosmic is to COSMIC. COSMIC has no need for an alternative to GLib or GIO. Rust's standard library, the futures crates, and tokio are more than sufficient for handling I/O and asynchronous code execution. libcosmic uses tokio executors for handling application commands by default. You can bring your own executor and thread pool libraries if you want.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  The use a library called 'libcosmic' that uses Iced framework that is written in Rust.
gradstudent 3y ago
I wonder if the launcher file find has improved. it's barely functional at the moment, and miles behind Spotlight
eviks 3y ago
> Dragging your cursor to a window’s title bar to move it takes an unneeded level of precision So does ... to a windows's resize border. Have they/do they plan to implement a similar thing for resize where instead you can drag to any ~20% of the side (with a modifier)?
- paranoidxprod 3y ago
  This is actually similar to how I use Hyprland Super + Left Click lets me drag a tiled window to a different location, while Super + Right Click lets me drag to resize. I usually do both with my keyboard but it's nice to have the option.
  - eviks 3y ago
    Can you do holdKey + Drag to resize (especially useful for touchpads)?
    - paranoidxprod 3y ago
      Yeah, I hold Super and drag Right Click to resize
      - eviks 3y ago
        I meant without any clicks, that can be more convenient, especially with touchpads
  - troyvit 3y ago
    KDE does this too, and I'd be non-functional without it. Grabbable window decorations seem a thing of the past.
    - ThatMedicIsASpy 3y ago
      I've seen me try to do this on Windows so often when I run into a Windows machine. I disable the title bar on most of my things anyways so I need the key.
shortformblog 3y ago
A warning for anyone who tests the Cosmic Desktop on their distro: It’s possible (if very much in a pre-alpha state), but it makes your file system read-only, which can be a bit of a surprise if you’re not aware it’s coming. It’s easily reversible, fortunately, but it really threw me for a loop when I wasn’t able to update my Tumbleweed packages. Heh.
- mmstick76 3y ago
  This is not true, and I do not know what gave you that impression. What you're describing is a side effect of using systemd-sysext, but I do not know why you would be using that.
- pxc 3y ago
  o.0 how is that the business of a desktop environment?
  - shortformblog 3y ago
    Here’s the part that explains it from the GitHub page (https://github.com/pop-os/cosmic-epoch https://github.com/pop-os/cosmic-epoch): Read-Only Filesystem: If you're not on an immutable distro you may notice that /usr/ and /opt/ are read-only. this is caused by systemd-sysext being enabled, when you are done testing you can disable systemd-sysext (sudo systemctl disable --now systemd-sysext) It is thus no proper method for long term deployment. It makes sense to me but it definitely caught me off-guard.
    - pxc 3y ago
      I'd never heard of systemd-sysext, as I've not really spent any time with imperative immutable distros. From the man page: > systemd-sysext activates/deactivates system extension images. System extension images may – dynamically at runtime — extend the /usr/ and /opt/ directory hierarchies with additional files. This is particularly useful on immutable system images where a /usr/ and/or /opt/ hierarchy residing on a read-only file system shall be extended temporarily at runtime without making any persistent modifications. > [...] > The primary use case for system images are immutable environments where debugging and development tools shall optionally be made available, but not included in the immutable base OS image itself (e.g. strace(1) and gdb(1) shall be an optionally installable addition in order to make debugging/development easier). System extension images should not be misunderstood as a generic software packaging framework, as no dependency scheme is available: system extensions should carry all files they need themselves, except for those already shipped in the underlying host system image. > [...] > Another use case for the system extension concept is temporarily overriding OS supplied resources with newer ones, for example to install a locally compiled development version of some low-level component over the immutable OS image without doing a full OS rebuild or modifying the nominally immutable image. [...] This case works regardless if the underlying host /usr/ is managed as immutable disk image or is a traditional package manager controlled (i.e. writable) tree. https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/systemd-sysext.html https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/syst... So I guess this method is being presented to testers to give them a more controlled way to test.
redder23 3y ago
Did I miss the link or so they not have one to actually test this "pre alpha" version? I would like to fire up a VirtualBox VM to try it out.
- sphars 3y ago
  There's some instructions on their GitHub page that should point you in the right direction: https://github.com/pop-os/cosmic-epoch https://github.com/pop-os/cosmic-epoch
dartharva 3y ago
They set out to build a superior alternative to GNOME. What I see is functionally just another GNOME. If this was all it's going to be I don't understand what the point was.
- walteweiss 3y ago
  I see an inferior alternative to Gnome.
  - laerus 3y ago
    You realize they created that in what? less than two years? Completely from scratch with the whole stack in Rust. GNOME is 25 yo and it's superior to a alpha software DE but only barely. So I guess it wont be long until potentially GNOME would be ridiculously inferior to COSMIC like it already is to KDE. (I have used GNOME since forever btw)
    - debo_ 3y ago
      "Superior to alpha but only barely" is really hyperbolic. I use a modified Gnome via Zorin as basically a daily driver, and I have no issues with it. It's easier to use than Windows and MacOS in most cases for me.
    - poszlem 3y ago
      Good for them. As a user I can much less about that though.
    - walteweiss 3y ago
      No, I don’t realise that, because I’m not using the product and hear about it maybe 3rd time. That’s great they’re quick to implement, the Rust initiative, etc. But as a user of Gnome (since 2, idk if that’s forever) I don’t see much of a difference, and see only an inferior (at this point) product. I don’t mean it’s bad, I haven’t used it. Visually, it looks less polished / clean. Functionally, I don’t know, looks similar, more like a replica. Hence, my comment.
g5095 3y ago
Why? like.. why does every desktop need to build yet another terminal app, another file explorer? NIH
- mmstick76 3y ago
  What do you think a desktop environment is? Name one desktop environment that does not have its own file manager or terminal. Name and shame the platform and toolkit that lacks these basic necessities.
- skottenborg 3y ago
  It's a complete ecosystem with design and functionality being consistent and on par.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  Because if you don't do that then you end up with inconsistencies across the stack because you used apps with different conventions. (Things like the help menu being in the wrong place, or a core app suddenly not having a menu bar at all because GNOME decided those are obsolete, or some applications ignoring the system theme, or OK/Cancel being in the wrong order...)
- panick21_ 3y ago
  Because the are not using an existing toolkit like GTK or QT. They use Iced, a pretty new toolkit. Developing applications helps them making that toolkit fully production ready. The can reuse the same libraries and components across lots of applications, terminal, editor, settings and so on. Look at 'cosmic-text' for example. Plus it makes sense since apps developed with GTK/QT will not show of the full advantage of the new DE. System76 has to support everything they shit to costumers. So if they ship Alacritty and it has a bug they need to fix it. So it makes sense to have tight set of libraries and application that they control.
  - mmstick76 3y ago
    Technically, COSMIC uses libcosmic rather than iced. It is a custom toolkit based on a modified version of iced.
MatthiasPortzel 3y ago
I have mixed feelings about Cosmic. On one hand, the amount of fragmentation on desktop Linux is absurd. On Mac and Windows the desktop environment is synonymous with the operating system. On Linux, you can run one of 30 different desktop environments on the same distribution. This means that userspace bugs can manifest for any desktop-distro combination. On the other hand, System76 is well positioned to create a desktop environment that is cohesive and complete since they’re trying to sell computers running them. Linus on the server has financial backing, and Linux on the desktop has precious little.
- mmstick76 3y ago
  There are dozens of GUI libraries and platform toolkits available to both Mac and Windows. In fact, there are plenty of GTK and Qt applications floating around on these platforms. As well as a lot of applications using custom frameworks. Then of course the unfortunate web-apps-as-desktop-apps pipeline in the form of Electron. Fragmentation is a very loaded and derogatory term used to express disdain for the openness and freedom that open source desktops have. Fragmentation is a strength of open source.
- smashed 3y ago
  Linux is a bazaar. Very chaotic, nothing is ever perfect, but there is something for everyone that sets foot.
- tracker1 3y ago
  I'm sorry, but windows itself, let alone applications are anything but consistent. There are still corners of the UI that have a look and feel dating back to NT4/Win9x. And some of the new functionality is oddly worse UX. In terms of fragmentation, gnome and kde are the vast majority of configurations. Even other DE are likely using the underlying graphics library. Given the level of customization that System 76 has to do with gnome for every release, it's probably easier for them to just create something more congestive for their designs. And given that they actually sell and support hardware, are far more likely to make better choices for more general users than a lot of other DE in my opinion. I do wish they'd make a deal with framework to get it with Pop as an in the box option supported by System 76... I'd pay a bit extra for that.
sandreas 3y ago
The main problem I have with modern desktop environments is the lack of scriptable automation... I really hope they build something like this. Although I could just save all dotfiles, configs and extensions via file backup, I always struggle to create a script based setup. I would love to maintain a list of extension names, settings etc and have something like: gnome-extension install --config-file my-extension-config.txt kde-plugin install --config my-plugin-config.txt gsettings set --config-file my-settings.txt just a little more reliable... Maybe a hard problem, but I think this would be great. Export settings would also be great. gsettings export --to my-settings.txt :-)
- stijnveken 3y ago
  It's probably overkill for what you are trying to do. But I have been using home-manager [0] as a way to quickly restore my working environment. [0] https://nix-community.github.io/home-manager/ https://nix-community.github.io/home-manager/
  - sandreas 3y ago
    I'm planning to go NixOS as soon as possible. That is exactly what I would like to have - a fully working environment with one set of config files.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- micimize 3y ago
  What level are you interested in scripting? In KDE Plasma you can interact with the desktop UI via JS: https://develop.kde.org/docs/plasma/scripting/ https://develop.kde.org/docs/plasma/scripting/ And then for something more sophisticated there are extensions like https://github.com/Bismuth-Forge/bismuth https://github.com/Bismuth-Forge/bismuth. It does all feel a little disorganized/wild-west-y compared to say, a .vimrc with a list of plugins and bindings, which is something that makes a system like Nix (or a fully containerized DE of some kind) appealing
noisy_boy 3y ago
The link is returning 500 - archive.org link: https://shorturl.at/eiuNR https://shorturl.at/eiuNR
nazgulsenpai 3y ago
I appreciate that System76 is making the changes that they want to see in the DE themselves, and I think overall it looks very cohesive and I can understand what they are trying to achieve. But unfortunately it has the same problems that I have with modern GNOME - it looks like a mobile phone/tablet UI. I really can't understand the design trend of hiding all but basic functionality behind a hamburger menu, or if you're lucky a few unlabeled toolbar icons to decipher, on a destkop PC. Or shoving a search bar and all of the application's menu/toolbar (what's left of it) into the title bar. It makes perfect sense on a small screen, but their flagship products are desktop and laptop PCs.
- mmstick76 3y ago
  Have you never heard of tiling window management? You do realize that tiling window managers are used on multi-display setups with multiple 4K displays, right? Windows have to be responsive to very narrow widths to be comfortable for use in a tile. Regardless if you have a small screen, or use 4K displays like I do.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  I dont get why you want a titlebar. Like what does it add? Its literally empty space with no function. You can still grab the window or double click it even if part of it has a search bar in it.
ln_00 3y ago
Why does Jetbrains IDEA in the App Store Screenshot use the Godot Game Engine Avatar?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
tracker1 3y ago
My biggest curiosity is how easy it hard it will be to use their UI widgets for third party software and release on other DE. I like the idea of writing more apps with Rust and if the ergonomic fit is better than alternatives, this could be a great way Forward. Bridging themes with gnome/gtk in the other direction likely a necessity for that use case. My only other concern is getting kde tray apps to work out of the box. With budgie/Gnome, I've had to install an add on for that. Not that I have a lot of things needing the integration. Variety and Dropbox being the main ones for me. It's also annoying when Windows don't have a corresponding handle in the taskbar. If they deal with these annoyances well, I'll be more than happy with the next Pop release.
- mmstick76 3y ago
  Third party developers have access to the same APIs that COSMIC applets and applications use. It's not possible for a crate to prevent use of public APIs based on who is importing the crate.
entropy1111 3y ago
Unusable until moving your mouse to the edges of the screen and clicking makes it hit the scrollbar, or the exit button. Right now it initiates a resize. For maximized windows. Illustrated example from a different compositor https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/issues/570 https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/issues/570 It's the only DE I'm excited about it so I hope they fix that. Very very promising and the best part is that it made the GNOME people mad. GNOME: "Sorry I don't see the use case for that, PR closed. Make your own project." Cosmic: "Yes"

207 points by pantalaimon 3y ago

It's good to see that it still seems to be reasonable to create new compositors. The amount and diversity of requirements regarding this type of software seems to be still managable. That was one of the concerns I had regarding giving up Xorg.

mrmlz 3y ago

I've been using linux for some 15-20 years depending on how you count. The last 3 i've been using PopOs! as a complete windows replacement. Gaming works great (with the usual caveats) and everything has been a pleasant experience. I've never been a gnome fan almost always switching to xfce but on PopOs! its alright! I'm very much looking forward being able to drop Gnome and use Cosmic instead - having thumbnailsupport is going to be an improvement.

thrawaway3292 3y ago
> having thumbnailsupport is going to be an improvement What is this referring to?
- unwind 3y ago
  Probably this [1] bug which was pretty high-profile. [1]: https://www.omglinux.com/gnome-thumbnails-file-picker/ https://www.omglinux.com/gnome-thumbnails-file-picker/
Perizors 3y ago
Afaik thumbnails have already been fixed in gnome
- mrmlz 3y ago
  https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/4379 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/4379 Do they actually generate a thumbnail or do they just show the available ones? Honestly I don't follow the issue I just know that thumbnails have been an absolute mess in gnome as long as I remember.
  - NekkoDroid 3y ago
    > Do they actually generate a thumbnail or do they just show the available ones? I haven't tested it, but either way the current plan is to replace the GTK file picker with Nautilus in a "file picker" mode. So if it is a problem it should in theory be fixed with that. https://discourse.gnome.org/t/planning-filechooser-portal-implementation-with-nautilus/20335 https://discourse.gnome.org/t/planning-filechooser-portal-im...
    - mrmlz 3y ago
      The year of the linux desktop is closing in! :) Well its good that they are working on it.

tigerlily 3y ago

Vaguely related I'm finding UIs are so flat, we must be getting close to single gold atom thickness. I wonder when bevels and skeumorphs will be back? These days there's tons of nostalgia for 90s magazine style serifs, but without the gonzo UI. What gives?

Waterluvian 3y ago
Came to say almost exactly that. It’s interesting how much nostalgia there is for peak 90s UI, but not even Linux distros can escape the flat, uncontrasting, large padding interfaces.
- voxadam 3y ago
  I don't know about anyone else but in my mind the best UIs of the 90s were all pretty much created by or heavily influenced by Kai Krause.[0][1] The interfaces for Kai's Power Tools[2] and and Bryce[3] are pure 90s nostalgia for me. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Krause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Krause [1] http://kai.sub.blue/ http://kai.sub.blue/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai%27s_Power_Tools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai%27s_Power_Tools [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryce_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryce_(software)
  - colordrops 3y ago
    I love when people activate regions of my brain that have been dormant for 30 years.
- logicprog 3y ago
  Probably because most people actually prefer them, now that the vast majority of people are past the point of needing skeumorphic metaphors to understand user interfaces, because we grew up with computers. I would certainly throw my computer out and go live in the woods if I had to deal with beveled, gradiented garbage with dense, tiny interfaces cluttered with stuff with no proper spacing to let it breathe. When I upgraded mg family computer from Vista to 8 as a kid, or when iOS went from skeumorphic to flat a bit later, I was so relieved, it was like getting a cold glass of water.

jchoksi 3y ago

I am looking forward to trying this. Currently use KDE(Wayland) and was looking to move to Wayfire as I really don't need all the things being offered in KDE and Wayfire satisfied all my needs from a WM/Compositor.

CarVac 3y ago

> Dragging your cursor to a window’s title bar to move it takes an unneeded level of precision. To maintain focus — as well as comfort on trackpads — simply clicking any region of a window while holding Super will allow dragging it to your preferred location and quickly get back to your important task. On most Linux DEs you hold Alt for that...

skerit 3y ago
I remapped it to Super in Gnome, makes more sense. But I do consider this to be an essential feature
exe34 3y ago
Oh so now I need both hands to move a window? Thanks.
- abhinavk 3y ago
  What you get is an option.
- eviks 3y ago
  What does your other hand do when you're moving a window?
  - dopp0 3y ago
    you know... stuff!
  - exe34 3y ago
    Do you really want to know? Holds up my chin.
- darthrupert 3y ago
  What is your other hand busy with?
beepbooptheory 3y ago
The context here though is trying to make a friendlier i3/sway type wm. This is exactly the behavior we have for those with floating windows.

honeybadger1 3y ago

I was working with a product designer as a UI/UX test subject a few years back before the first release of Cosmic. What a long way it has came since then! I am a huge fun of the effort put in to PopOS to make Linux interesting to the average desktop user.

curt15 3y ago

What's the SDK story for Cosmic? Do they provide an alternative to GTK/Glib/GIO?

mmstick76 3y ago
libadwaita/GTK4 is to GNOME what libcosmic is to COSMIC. COSMIC has no need for an alternative to GLib or GIO. Rust's standard library, the futures crates, and tokio are more than sufficient for handling I/O and asynchronous code execution. libcosmic uses tokio executors for handling application commands by default. You can bring your own executor and thread pool libraries if you want.
panick21_ 3y ago
The use a library called 'libcosmic' that uses Iced framework that is written in Rust.

gradstudent 3y ago

I wonder if the launcher file find has improved. it's barely functional at the moment, and miles behind Spotlight

eviks 3y ago

> Dragging your cursor to a window’s title bar to move it takes an unneeded level of precision So does ... to a windows's resize border. Have they/do they plan to implement a similar thing for resize where instead you can drag to any ~20% of the side (with a modifier)?

paranoidxprod 3y ago
This is actually similar to how I use Hyprland Super + Left Click lets me drag a tiled window to a different location, while Super + Right Click lets me drag to resize. I usually do both with my keyboard but it's nice to have the option.
- eviks 3y ago
  Can you do holdKey + Drag to resize (especially useful for touchpads)?
  - paranoidxprod 3y ago
    Yeah, I hold Super and drag Right Click to resize
    - eviks 3y ago
      I meant without any clicks, that can be more convenient, especially with touchpads
- troyvit 3y ago
  KDE does this too, and I'd be non-functional without it. Grabbable window decorations seem a thing of the past.
  - ThatMedicIsASpy 3y ago
    I've seen me try to do this on Windows so often when I run into a Windows machine. I disable the title bar on most of my things anyways so I need the key.

shortformblog 3y ago

A warning for anyone who tests the Cosmic Desktop on their distro: It’s possible (if very much in a pre-alpha state), but it makes your file system read-only, which can be a bit of a surprise if you’re not aware it’s coming. It’s easily reversible, fortunately, but it really threw me for a loop when I wasn’t able to update my Tumbleweed packages. Heh.

mmstick76 3y ago
This is not true, and I do not know what gave you that impression. What you're describing is a side effect of using systemd-sysext, but I do not know why you would be using that.
pxc 3y ago
o.0 how is that the business of a desktop environment?
- shortformblog 3y ago
  Here’s the part that explains it from the GitHub page (https://github.com/pop-os/cosmic-epoch https://github.com/pop-os/cosmic-epoch): Read-Only Filesystem: If you're not on an immutable distro you may notice that /usr/ and /opt/ are read-only. this is caused by systemd-sysext being enabled, when you are done testing you can disable systemd-sysext (sudo systemctl disable --now systemd-sysext) It is thus no proper method for long term deployment. It makes sense to me but it definitely caught me off-guard.
  - pxc 3y ago
    I'd never heard of systemd-sysext, as I've not really spent any time with imperative immutable distros. From the man page: > systemd-sysext activates/deactivates system extension images. System extension images may – dynamically at runtime — extend the /usr/ and /opt/ directory hierarchies with additional files. This is particularly useful on immutable system images where a /usr/ and/or /opt/ hierarchy residing on a read-only file system shall be extended temporarily at runtime without making any persistent modifications. > [...] > The primary use case for system images are immutable environments where debugging and development tools shall optionally be made available, but not included in the immutable base OS image itself (e.g. strace(1) and gdb(1) shall be an optionally installable addition in order to make debugging/development easier). System extension images should not be misunderstood as a generic software packaging framework, as no dependency scheme is available: system extensions should carry all files they need themselves, except for those already shipped in the underlying host system image. > [...] > Another use case for the system extension concept is temporarily overriding OS supplied resources with newer ones, for example to install a locally compiled development version of some low-level component over the immutable OS image without doing a full OS rebuild or modifying the nominally immutable image. [...] This case works regardless if the underlying host /usr/ is managed as immutable disk image or is a traditional package manager controlled (i.e. writable) tree. https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/systemd-sysext.html https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/syst... So I guess this method is being presented to testers to give them a more controlled way to test.

redder23 3y ago

Did I miss the link or so they not have one to actually test this "pre alpha" version? I would like to fire up a VirtualBox VM to try it out.

sphars 3y ago
There's some instructions on their GitHub page that should point you in the right direction: https://github.com/pop-os/cosmic-epoch https://github.com/pop-os/cosmic-epoch

dartharva 3y ago

They set out to build a superior alternative to GNOME. What I see is functionally just another GNOME. If this was all it's going to be I don't understand what the point was.

walteweiss 3y ago
I see an inferior alternative to Gnome.
- laerus 3y ago
  You realize they created that in what? less than two years? Completely from scratch with the whole stack in Rust. GNOME is 25 yo and it's superior to a alpha software DE but only barely. So I guess it wont be long until potentially GNOME would be ridiculously inferior to COSMIC like it already is to KDE. (I have used GNOME since forever btw)
  - debo_ 3y ago
    "Superior to alpha but only barely" is really hyperbolic. I use a modified Gnome via Zorin as basically a daily driver, and I have no issues with it. It's easier to use than Windows and MacOS in most cases for me.
  - poszlem 3y ago
    Good for them. As a user I can much less about that though.
  - walteweiss 3y ago
    No, I don’t realise that, because I’m not using the product and hear about it maybe 3rd time. That’s great they’re quick to implement, the Rust initiative, etc. But as a user of Gnome (since 2, idk if that’s forever) I don’t see much of a difference, and see only an inferior (at this point) product. I don’t mean it’s bad, I haven’t used it. Visually, it looks less polished / clean. Functionally, I don’t know, looks similar, more like a replica. Hence, my comment.

g5095 3y ago

Why? like.. why does every desktop need to build yet another terminal app, another file explorer? NIH

mmstick76 3y ago
What do you think a desktop environment is? Name one desktop environment that does not have its own file manager or terminal. Name and shame the platform and toolkit that lacks these basic necessities.
skottenborg 3y ago
It's a complete ecosystem with design and functionality being consistent and on par.
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
Because if you don't do that then you end up with inconsistencies across the stack because you used apps with different conventions. (Things like the help menu being in the wrong place, or a core app suddenly not having a menu bar at all because GNOME decided those are obsolete, or some applications ignoring the system theme, or OK/Cancel being in the wrong order...)
panick21_ 3y ago
Because the are not using an existing toolkit like GTK or QT. They use Iced, a pretty new toolkit. Developing applications helps them making that toolkit fully production ready. The can reuse the same libraries and components across lots of applications, terminal, editor, settings and so on. Look at 'cosmic-text' for example. Plus it makes sense since apps developed with GTK/QT will not show of the full advantage of the new DE. System76 has to support everything they shit to costumers. So if they ship Alacritty and it has a bug they need to fix it. So it makes sense to have tight set of libraries and application that they control.
- mmstick76 3y ago
  Technically, COSMIC uses libcosmic rather than iced. It is a custom toolkit based on a modified version of iced.

MatthiasPortzel 3y ago

I have mixed feelings about Cosmic. On one hand, the amount of fragmentation on desktop Linux is absurd. On Mac and Windows the desktop environment is synonymous with the operating system. On Linux, you can run one of 30 different desktop environments on the same distribution. This means that userspace bugs can manifest for any desktop-distro combination. On the other hand, System76 is well positioned to create a desktop environment that is cohesive and complete since they’re trying to sell computers running them. Linus on the server has financial backing, and Linux on the desktop has precious little.

mmstick76 3y ago
There are dozens of GUI libraries and platform toolkits available to both Mac and Windows. In fact, there are plenty of GTK and Qt applications floating around on these platforms. As well as a lot of applications using custom frameworks. Then of course the unfortunate web-apps-as-desktop-apps pipeline in the form of Electron. Fragmentation is a very loaded and derogatory term used to express disdain for the openness and freedom that open source desktops have. Fragmentation is a strength of open source.
smashed 3y ago
Linux is a bazaar. Very chaotic, nothing is ever perfect, but there is something for everyone that sets foot.
tracker1 3y ago
I'm sorry, but windows itself, let alone applications are anything but consistent. There are still corners of the UI that have a look and feel dating back to NT4/Win9x. And some of the new functionality is oddly worse UX. In terms of fragmentation, gnome and kde are the vast majority of configurations. Even other DE are likely using the underlying graphics library. Given the level of customization that System 76 has to do with gnome for every release, it's probably easier for them to just create something more congestive for their designs. And given that they actually sell and support hardware, are far more likely to make better choices for more general users than a lot of other DE in my opinion. I do wish they'd make a deal with framework to get it with Pop as an in the box option supported by System 76... I'd pay a bit extra for that.

sandreas 3y ago

The main problem I have with modern desktop environments is the lack of scriptable automation... I really hope they build something like this. Although I could just save all dotfiles, configs and extensions via file backup, I always struggle to create a script based setup. I would love to maintain a list of extension names, settings etc and have something like: gnome-extension install --config-file my-extension-config.txt kde-plugin install --config my-plugin-config.txt gsettings set --config-file my-settings.txt just a little more reliable... Maybe a hard problem, but I think this would be great. Export settings would also be great. gsettings export --to my-settings.txt :-)

stijnveken 3y ago
It's probably overkill for what you are trying to do. But I have been using home-manager [0] as a way to quickly restore my working environment. [0] https://nix-community.github.io/home-manager/ https://nix-community.github.io/home-manager/
- sandreas 3y ago
  I'm planning to go NixOS as soon as possible. That is exactly what I would like to have - a fully working environment with one set of config files.
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micimize 3y ago
What level are you interested in scripting? In KDE Plasma you can interact with the desktop UI via JS: https://develop.kde.org/docs/plasma/scripting/ https://develop.kde.org/docs/plasma/scripting/ And then for something more sophisticated there are extensions like https://github.com/Bismuth-Forge/bismuth https://github.com/Bismuth-Forge/bismuth. It does all feel a little disorganized/wild-west-y compared to say, a .vimrc with a list of plugins and bindings, which is something that makes a system like Nix (or a fully containerized DE of some kind) appealing

noisy_boy 3y ago

The link is returning 500 - archive.org link: https://shorturl.at/eiuNR https://shorturl.at/eiuNR

nazgulsenpai 3y ago

I appreciate that System76 is making the changes that they want to see in the DE themselves, and I think overall it looks very cohesive and I can understand what they are trying to achieve. But unfortunately it has the same problems that I have with modern GNOME - it looks like a mobile phone/tablet UI. I really can't understand the design trend of hiding all but basic functionality behind a hamburger menu, or if you're lucky a few unlabeled toolbar icons to decipher, on a destkop PC. Or shoving a search bar and all of the application's menu/toolbar (what's left of it) into the title bar. It makes perfect sense on a small screen, but their flagship products are desktop and laptop PCs.

mmstick76 3y ago
Have you never heard of tiling window management? You do realize that tiling window managers are used on multi-display setups with multiple 4K displays, right? Windows have to be responsive to very narrow widths to be comfortable for use in a tile. Regardless if you have a small screen, or use 4K displays like I do.
panick21_ 3y ago
I dont get why you want a titlebar. Like what does it add? Its literally empty space with no function. You can still grab the window or double click it even if part of it has a search bar in it.

ln_00 3y ago

Why does Jetbrains IDEA in the App Store Screenshot use the Godot Game Engine Avatar?

deleted 3y ago

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tracker1 3y ago

My biggest curiosity is how easy it hard it will be to use their UI widgets for third party software and release on other DE. I like the idea of writing more apps with Rust and if the ergonomic fit is better than alternatives, this could be a great way Forward. Bridging themes with gnome/gtk in the other direction likely a necessity for that use case. My only other concern is getting kde tray apps to work out of the box. With budgie/Gnome, I've had to install an add on for that. Not that I have a lot of things needing the integration. Variety and Dropbox being the main ones for me. It's also annoying when Windows don't have a corresponding handle in the taskbar. If they deal with these annoyances well, I'll be more than happy with the next Pop release.

mmstick76 3y ago
Third party developers have access to the same APIs that COSMIC applets and applications use. It's not possible for a crate to prevent use of public APIs based on who is importing the crate.

entropy1111 3y ago

Unusable until moving your mouse to the edges of the screen and clicking makes it hit the scrollbar, or the exit button. Right now it initiates a resize. For maximized windows. Illustrated example from a different compositor https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/issues/570 https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/issues/570 It's the only DE I'm excited about it so I hope they fix that. Very very promising and the best part is that it made the GNOME people mad. GNOME: "Sorry I don't see the use case for that, PR closed. Make your own project." Cosmic: "Yes"