5 ms·

> This isn't vacations and newer cars, though. They did take a vacation though, for about four years. Sometimes more. Divide that out by the next fifty years

by koolba 3y ago

> This isn't vacations and newer cars, though. They did take a vacation though, for about four years. Sometimes more. Divide that out by the next fifty years of life and you get 4 x 250 / 50 = 20 vacation days per year. Plus, based on the time value of money, those "taken in advance" vacation days are arguably worth more than the ones years from now. I'll be honest. I have no sympathy for liberal arts majors that are saddled with debt and cannot find meaningful work that leverages their education.

alistairSH 3y ago
Except we also have liberal arts majors who DID FIND meaningful work and still struggle. Teachers and others in education come to mind.
- koolba 3y ago
  I meant financially meaningful. If they can’t pay their loans, then by definition it’s not financially meaningful. They made a bad bet and they’re going to pay the price for it. Being deceived on the expected outcome doesn’t automatically allow passing the financial responsibility to tax payers. If there’s actual fraud, let them sue the institutions. Maybe they can find a new generation of liberal arts majors and continue the Ponzi scheme.
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    From a purely policy stand-point, the question we should be asking is "does forgiving some subset of loans result in a net-positive for society?" If the answer is "Yes" then we should be forgiving that subset of loans. For example, we have the PSLF for borrowers who work in service careers. Maybe we don't need blanket loan forgives, but should simplify and beef-up PSLF. And in parallel, we should be reforming the funding system for college so we don't have to keep addressing this problem.
    - randomdata 3y ago
      If we are to forgive some amount of debt, wouldn't housing mortgage forgiveness be more beneficial? It is not a good situation either, but I think we at least agree that we want people to continue to have homes. We do not want people to continue wasting their time in college. That itself is a huge drag on society. There needs to be some kind of 'punishment' to scare off future would-be students. "Oh, go on have your fun in your youth and we will all help you pay for it later" doesn't exactly send the right message. PSLF isn't really loan forgiveness in the traditional sense. It is an employer providing compensation to workers for a quality that is deemed beneficial to the work being done. All employers are free to do this, and do so where such a benefit is recognized.
      - alistairSH 3y ago
        PSLF isn't really loan forgiveness in the traditional sense. It is an employer providing compensation to workers for a quality that is deemed beneficial to the work being done. All employers are free to do this, and do so where such a benefit is recognized. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how the program works... isn't it a federal program that forgives the loans of public sector and (some) non-profit workers after 10 years of employment and payments? To my knowledge, it's not funded by the various government agencies or non-profits, but by the federal government.
    - koolba 3y ago
      > For example, we have the PSLF for borrowers who work in service careers. Maybe we don't need blanket loan forgives, but should simplify and beef-up PSLF. PLSF is indeed a great example. It has well defined terms and people arguably know what they're getting into when they sign up for public service employment (with the intention to defer their loans). I'm pretty strongly opposed to anything new though. The only thing I might get behind is a uniform policy that simply hands out cash to everybody regardless of incomes or loan status. If people have loans, don't even give them the cash, just pay off that slice of their loans. If there's no loans, they get the cash. No income games either. The only possible qualifications would be whether you're employed (which means the IRS already has a tax id). If we're going to make all of us poorer through inflation by printing money, might as well distribute it fairly. At least in that situation the kid that went to trade school and doesn't have loan debt gets the cash.
- nradov 3y ago
  The teachers who are struggling are mostly those who choose to live in high-cost areas. For example, the total tuition price at CSU Bakersfield to go from being a high school graduate to having a teaching credential in 6 years is about $38K. The starting annual salary for a public school teacher in Bakersfield is $59K. And that's with summers off when they can do other work. Average rent for a small apartment in an unfashionable neighborhood is something like $20K. It's totally possible to make student loan payments without struggling. There won't be a lot of luxuries, but they can have a middle-class lifestyle with a solid career path. We should do more to increase low-income housing availability in certain areas, but that's largely a separate issue.
- brg 3y ago
  Every teacher and nurse in my cohort had student loan payoff as part of their employment offer, and quickly retired their debt. This was in multiple states across the country.
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    Did those offers apply to general teaching positions, or specialized roles? My mom had a similar offer ~30 years ago when she re-entered the workforce, but she was an ESOL teacher (and at the time, the offer only applied to ESOL and special needs, which both took extra certifications).
lenerdenator 3y ago
College coursework != vacation. That much should be obvious.

by koolba 3y ago

alistairSH 3y ago

Except we also have liberal arts majors who DID FIND meaningful work and still struggle. Teachers and others in education come to mind.

koolba 3y ago
I meant financially meaningful. If they can’t pay their loans, then by definition it’s not financially meaningful. They made a bad bet and they’re going to pay the price for it. Being deceived on the expected outcome doesn’t automatically allow passing the financial responsibility to tax payers. If there’s actual fraud, let them sue the institutions. Maybe they can find a new generation of liberal arts majors and continue the Ponzi scheme.
- alistairSH 3y ago
  From a purely policy stand-point, the question we should be asking is "does forgiving some subset of loans result in a net-positive for society?" If the answer is "Yes" then we should be forgiving that subset of loans. For example, we have the PSLF for borrowers who work in service careers. Maybe we don't need blanket loan forgives, but should simplify and beef-up PSLF. And in parallel, we should be reforming the funding system for college so we don't have to keep addressing this problem.
  - randomdata 3y ago
    If we are to forgive some amount of debt, wouldn't housing mortgage forgiveness be more beneficial? It is not a good situation either, but I think we at least agree that we want people to continue to have homes. We do not want people to continue wasting their time in college. That itself is a huge drag on society. There needs to be some kind of 'punishment' to scare off future would-be students. "Oh, go on have your fun in your youth and we will all help you pay for it later" doesn't exactly send the right message. PSLF isn't really loan forgiveness in the traditional sense. It is an employer providing compensation to workers for a quality that is deemed beneficial to the work being done. All employers are free to do this, and do so where such a benefit is recognized.
    - alistairSH 3y ago
      PSLF isn't really loan forgiveness in the traditional sense. It is an employer providing compensation to workers for a quality that is deemed beneficial to the work being done. All employers are free to do this, and do so where such a benefit is recognized. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how the program works... isn't it a federal program that forgives the loans of public sector and (some) non-profit workers after 10 years of employment and payments? To my knowledge, it's not funded by the various government agencies or non-profits, but by the federal government.
  - koolba 3y ago
    > For example, we have the PSLF for borrowers who work in service careers. Maybe we don't need blanket loan forgives, but should simplify and beef-up PSLF. PLSF is indeed a great example. It has well defined terms and people arguably know what they're getting into when they sign up for public service employment (with the intention to defer their loans). I'm pretty strongly opposed to anything new though. The only thing I might get behind is a uniform policy that simply hands out cash to everybody regardless of incomes or loan status. If people have loans, don't even give them the cash, just pay off that slice of their loans. If there's no loans, they get the cash. No income games either. The only possible qualifications would be whether you're employed (which means the IRS already has a tax id). If we're going to make all of us poorer through inflation by printing money, might as well distribute it fairly. At least in that situation the kid that went to trade school and doesn't have loan debt gets the cash.
nradov 3y ago
The teachers who are struggling are mostly those who choose to live in high-cost areas. For example, the total tuition price at CSU Bakersfield to go from being a high school graduate to having a teaching credential in 6 years is about $38K. The starting annual salary for a public school teacher in Bakersfield is $59K. And that's with summers off when they can do other work. Average rent for a small apartment in an unfashionable neighborhood is something like $20K. It's totally possible to make student loan payments without struggling. There won't be a lot of luxuries, but they can have a middle-class lifestyle with a solid career path. We should do more to increase low-income housing availability in certain areas, but that's largely a separate issue.
brg 3y ago
Every teacher and nurse in my cohort had student loan payoff as part of their employment offer, and quickly retired their debt. This was in multiple states across the country.
- alistairSH 3y ago
  Did those offers apply to general teaching positions, or specialized roles? My mom had a similar offer ~30 years ago when she re-entered the workforce, but she was an ESOL teacher (and at the time, the offer only applied to ESOL and special needs, which both took extra certifications).

lenerdenator 3y ago

College coursework != vacation. That much should be obvious.