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I'm GenX and the beginnings of the loan crisis was definitely getting started in the 90s and 00s, as the tail end of X moved into the workforce. I had friends w

I'm GenX and the beginnings of the loan crisis was definitely getting started in the 90s and 00s, as the tail end of X moved into the workforce. I had friends who definitely forwent consumption of things like vacations, newer cars, etc due to loan obligations. And it was the same pattern we see now - largely liberal arts graduates from expensive private schools or out-of-state schools.

lenerdenator 3y ago
This isn't vacations and newer cars, though. This is having kids or equity in a property that one lives in. And it's not just the underwater basket weavers.
- alistairSH 3y ago
  No question, just pointing out this trend was observable ~30 years ago. It's not a new problem, just getting progressively worse.
- koolba 3y ago
  > This isn't vacations and newer cars, though. They did take a vacation though, for about four years. Sometimes more. Divide that out by the next fifty years of life and you get 4 x 250 / 50 = 20 vacation days per year. Plus, based on the time value of money, those "taken in advance" vacation days are arguably worth more than the ones years from now. I'll be honest. I have no sympathy for liberal arts majors that are saddled with debt and cannot find meaningful work that leverages their education.
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    Except we also have liberal arts majors who DID FIND meaningful work and still struggle. Teachers and others in education come to mind.
    - koolba 3y ago
      I meant financially meaningful. If they can’t pay their loans, then by definition it’s not financially meaningful. They made a bad bet and they’re going to pay the price for it. Being deceived on the expected outcome doesn’t automatically allow passing the financial responsibility to tax payers. If there’s actual fraud, let them sue the institutions. Maybe they can find a new generation of liberal arts majors and continue the Ponzi scheme.
      - alistairSH 3y ago
        From a purely policy stand-point, the question we should be asking is "does forgiving some subset of loans result in a net-positive for society?" If the answer is "Yes" then we should be forgiving that subset of loans. For example, we have the PSLF for borrowers who work in service careers. Maybe we don't need blanket loan forgives, but should simplify and beef-up PSLF. And in parallel, we should be reforming the funding system for college so we don't have to keep addressing this problem.
        randomdata 3y ago
        If we are to forgive some amount of debt, wouldn't housing mortgage forgiveness be more beneficial? It is not a good situation either, but I think we at least agree that we want people to continue to have homes. We do not want people to continue wasting their time in college. That itself is a huge drag on society. There needs to be some kind of 'punishment' to scare off future would-be students. "Oh, go on have your fun in your youth and we will all help you pay for it later" doesn't exactly send the right message. PSLF isn't really loan forgiveness in the traditional sense. It is an employer providing compensation to workers for a quality that is deemed beneficial to the work being done. All employers are free to do this, and do so where such a benefit is recognized.
        alistairSH 3y ago
        PSLF isn't really loan forgiveness in the traditional sense. It is an employer providing compensation to workers for a quality that is deemed beneficial to the work being done. All employers are free to do this, and do so where such a benefit is recognized. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how the program works... isn't it a federal program that forgives the loans of public sector and (some) non-profit workers after 10 years of employment and payments? To my knowledge, it's not funded by the various government agencies or non-profits, but by the federal government.
  - lenerdenator 3y ago
    College coursework != vacation. That much should be obvious.
analognoise 3y ago
It's amazing that we denigrate the foundations of a classical education for fellow members of the working class, and rather than blame the politicians (and the body politic, of course...) for failing to shape the market for our fellow citizens to thrive (including taxing billionaires, controlling immigration, etc) we simply blame the working class for choosing the wrong subject at the ripe age of 18 and doom them to a family-less, apartment-dwelling class forever, as though they should have had the foresight to "compete on their merits" in the same system that cut taxes for the billionaires after "forgiving" their COVID loans. "Meritocracy" was always a dystopian fiction, but the disconnect between even "good worker" and "stable, good income" is so severed that we watch as thousands of our tech compatriots are laid off after record profits, and I have to wonder how deep the cuts have to come before we the slightest inkling of class consciousness takes root.

lenerdenator 3y ago

This isn't vacations and newer cars, though. This is having kids or equity in a property that one lives in. And it's not just the underwater basket weavers.

alistairSH 3y ago
No question, just pointing out this trend was observable ~30 years ago. It's not a new problem, just getting progressively worse.
koolba 3y ago
> This isn't vacations and newer cars, though. They did take a vacation though, for about four years. Sometimes more. Divide that out by the next fifty years of life and you get 4 x 250 / 50 = 20 vacation days per year. Plus, based on the time value of money, those "taken in advance" vacation days are arguably worth more than the ones years from now. I'll be honest. I have no sympathy for liberal arts majors that are saddled with debt and cannot find meaningful work that leverages their education.
- alistairSH 3y ago
  Except we also have liberal arts majors who DID FIND meaningful work and still struggle. Teachers and others in education come to mind.
  - koolba 3y ago
    I meant financially meaningful. If they can’t pay their loans, then by definition it’s not financially meaningful. They made a bad bet and they’re going to pay the price for it. Being deceived on the expected outcome doesn’t automatically allow passing the financial responsibility to tax payers. If there’s actual fraud, let them sue the institutions. Maybe they can find a new generation of liberal arts majors and continue the Ponzi scheme.
    - alistairSH 3y ago
      From a purely policy stand-point, the question we should be asking is "does forgiving some subset of loans result in a net-positive for society?" If the answer is "Yes" then we should be forgiving that subset of loans. For example, we have the PSLF for borrowers who work in service careers. Maybe we don't need blanket loan forgives, but should simplify and beef-up PSLF. And in parallel, we should be reforming the funding system for college so we don't have to keep addressing this problem.
      - randomdata 3y ago
        If we are to forgive some amount of debt, wouldn't housing mortgage forgiveness be more beneficial? It is not a good situation either, but I think we at least agree that we want people to continue to have homes. We do not want people to continue wasting their time in college. That itself is a huge drag on society. There needs to be some kind of 'punishment' to scare off future would-be students. "Oh, go on have your fun in your youth and we will all help you pay for it later" doesn't exactly send the right message. PSLF isn't really loan forgiveness in the traditional sense. It is an employer providing compensation to workers for a quality that is deemed beneficial to the work being done. All employers are free to do this, and do so where such a benefit is recognized.
        alistairSH 3y ago
        PSLF isn't really loan forgiveness in the traditional sense. It is an employer providing compensation to workers for a quality that is deemed beneficial to the work being done. All employers are free to do this, and do so where such a benefit is recognized. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how the program works... isn't it a federal program that forgives the loans of public sector and (some) non-profit workers after 10 years of employment and payments? To my knowledge, it's not funded by the various government agencies or non-profits, but by the federal government.
- lenerdenator 3y ago
  College coursework != vacation. That much should be obvious.

analognoise 3y ago

It's amazing that we denigrate the foundations of a classical education for fellow members of the working class, and rather than blame the politicians (and the body politic, of course...) for failing to shape the market for our fellow citizens to thrive (including taxing billionaires, controlling immigration, etc) we simply blame the working class for choosing the wrong subject at the ripe age of 18 and doom them to a family-less, apartment-dwelling class forever, as though they should have had the foresight to "compete on their merits" in the same system that cut taxes for the billionaires after "forgiving" their COVID loans. "Meritocracy" was always a dystopian fiction, but the disconnect between even "good worker" and "stable, good income" is so severed that we watch as thousands of our tech compatriots are laid off after record profits, and I have to wonder how deep the cuts have to come before we the slightest inkling of class consciousness takes root.