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US and British democracy certainly aren't the best implementations around. If you wanted to divide and rule you couldn't come up with a better voting system for

US and British democracy certainly aren't the best implementations around. If you wanted to divide and rule you couldn't come up with a better voting system for that than first-past-the-post.

colpabar 3y ago
First past the post is fine. It's the people who don't vote the way I do that are the problem!
- mptest 3y ago
  without the sarcasm people not voting is a huge issue. voter suppression is a central tactic for conservatives. Openly their cult leader recognizes "if everyone voted we'd never have another republican elected president"
  - svieira 3y ago
    Information-free voting is also a huge issue. Having everyone vote-as-Tim-does is rule-by-Tim but by another name.
torcete 3y ago
Interesting, some say that the US is the only real democracy in the world. The UK is not, nor any other countries in the world. They base this assertion in two principles that any democracy should fulfill: 1) Power separation. 2) Representativity. I can see that you don't agree with this, but what country has a better system then?
- archerx 3y ago
  Switzerland, we can actually vote for things instead of voting for people who we hope will vote for what we want.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    And the proliferation of ballot questions in US states has been a rather mixed bag. And in many locales in the US, there are direct votes on many local matters.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - rpmisms 3y ago
      Sounds like an argument for direct democracy to me. The will of the people was implemented, even though it's politically incorrect.
      - giraffe_lady 3y ago
        I don't always know what "politically incorrect" is being used as a euphemism for but banning mosques seems straightforwardly bad to me idk I guess I'm just a woke dumbass hey.
        snapcaster 3y ago
        Not that you're a woke dumbass, just probably not a true believer in democracy. The thing described above I also dislike, but I recognize I'm not a resident or voter there and I shouldn't get a say in their lives
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        palata 3y ago
        As said above, it was not banning mosques, but minarets specifically. There were only 4 minarets in Switzerland at the time, and no plan to build any more. You could try to build a minaret in Switzerland, get the permit refused, appeal, and try to go up to a court high enough to make that law illegal. But it seems like nobody cared. It was more political theater at the time. Not that it was a good vote, but I wouldn't say that the Swiss democracy doesn't work based on that. Switzerland is an example of consensus, and a functional democracy.
- thesuitonym 3y ago
  >Interesting, some say that the US is the only real democracy in the world. Who? The talking heads paid to do so?
- Winse 3y ago
  huh...I always thought of the US as a republic with some democratic features. I mean that's why we have things like the electoral college. Your voice influences but doesn't not actually drive.
- edgyquant 3y ago
  [flagged]
- wongarsu 3y ago
  Well, I would have said that the base criteria for a democracy is that the government is an extension of the will of the people (hence the name). But we can agree that Power separation and Representativity are reasonable proxies. But the US isn't well set up for representativity at all. Without going into the finer issues like gerrymandering or the more controversial things like the electoral college, the core issue is that a first-past-the-post system means there can only be two meaningful parties. So you can only really have two sides, when real issues often are far more nuanced than that.
- treflop 3y ago
  As a born-and-raised US citizen who went through US schooling and therefore got a load of political science, no. The US is a republic. You could call it a form of democracy, but you would first call it a republic before a democracy. Representativity is what makes it NOT a democracy. James Madison, a US founding father, felt that (direct) democracy led to mob rule and did not think that people directly voting on issues was a good idea. You can read his opinion from 1788 in the Federalist Papers, #55: https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-papers/text-51-60#s-lg-box-wrapper-25493431 https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-papers/text-51-60#s-lg-box... "Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob." - Alexander Hamilton or James Madison The world of political science is massive. There is no "best" system because once you read through this entire body of study, you realize it consists of compromises. People have been trying to figure this out for a very long time.
  - dragonelite 3y ago
    Voting behavior can be easily hacked as one can see in world elections. Its not for nothing you have analyst, advisors or other sort of experts in the field of electioneering.
    - ecommerceguy 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - ecommerceguy 3y ago
        I'm sure it's deep staters down voting me. That's fine. Oh look, even the Indian Supreme court state election machines can be manipulated by partisan humans. Go figure. https://www.thehindu.com/elections/supreme-court-rejects-a-return-to-paper-ballots-says-machines-are-accurate-unless-maligned-by-human-bias/article68072488.ece https://www.thehindu.com/elections/supreme-court-rejects-a-r... edit> That was the fasted one yet!
edgyquant 3y ago
[flagged]
- ParetoOptimal 3y ago
  Well this republic idea isn't working out well in practice. I prefer trying ranked choice voting and democracy to this nonsense.
  - sickofparadox 3y ago
    What choices are you ranking if not potential political representatives?
  - xscott 3y ago
    Many people suggest ranked choice, but it has the significant problem that you might have little idea who won or who is leading until the very last vote is in. One vote in a close race could kick off a chain of events that changes everything. And for a Federal election, a stupid and stubborn state (like the one I'm living in) could stall and delay submitting their results for weeks. Approval voting doesn't have this problem. When there's a clear winner, it's obvious and you can get back to business.
    - DeepSeaTortoise 3y ago
      TBH, "counting votes" for weeks is an issue exclusive to banana republics. There are plenty of functional democracies like Germany, in which the votes are counted by the end of the day and the results dont change by several percentage points during the next few weeks after the election.
      - xscott 3y ago
        Fair enough, but the last US presidential election had this banana nonsense going on with various recounts lasting for weeks. Maybe you can fix all the states in the entire country while you rework the election system, but since ranked choice and approval voting both solve the two party problem, I don't know why you'd risk the down side for ranked choice.
zrn900 3y ago
Here's what happens in 'better democracy implementations': https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/16/germany_palestine#:~:text=He%20was%20also%20banned%20from,former%20finance%20minister%20of%20Greece https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/16/germany_palestine#:~:...

US and British democracy certainly aren't the best implementations around. If you wanted to divide and rule you couldn't come up with a better voting system for that than first-past-the-post.

colpabar 3y ago

First past the post is fine. It's the people who don't vote the way I do that are the problem!

mptest 3y ago
without the sarcasm people not voting is a huge issue. voter suppression is a central tactic for conservatives. Openly their cult leader recognizes "if everyone voted we'd never have another republican elected president"
- svieira 3y ago
  Information-free voting is also a huge issue. Having everyone vote-as-Tim-does is rule-by-Tim but by another name.

torcete 3y ago

Interesting, some say that the US is the only real democracy in the world. The UK is not, nor any other countries in the world. They base this assertion in two principles that any democracy should fulfill: 1) Power separation. 2) Representativity. I can see that you don't agree with this, but what country has a better system then?

archerx 3y ago
Switzerland, we can actually vote for things instead of voting for people who we hope will vote for what we want.
- ghaff 3y ago
  And the proliferation of ballot questions in US states has been a rather mixed bag. And in many locales in the US, there are direct votes on many local matters.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - rpmisms 3y ago
    Sounds like an argument for direct democracy to me. The will of the people was implemented, even though it's politically incorrect.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      I don't always know what "politically incorrect" is being used as a euphemism for but banning mosques seems straightforwardly bad to me idk I guess I'm just a woke dumbass hey.
      - snapcaster 3y ago
        Not that you're a woke dumbass, just probably not a true believer in democracy. The thing described above I also dislike, but I recognize I'm not a resident or voter there and I shouldn't get a say in their lives
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - palata 3y ago
        As said above, it was not banning mosques, but minarets specifically. There were only 4 minarets in Switzerland at the time, and no plan to build any more. You could try to build a minaret in Switzerland, get the permit refused, appeal, and try to go up to a court high enough to make that law illegal. But it seems like nobody cared. It was more political theater at the time. Not that it was a good vote, but I wouldn't say that the Swiss democracy doesn't work based on that. Switzerland is an example of consensus, and a functional democracy.
thesuitonym 3y ago
>Interesting, some say that the US is the only real democracy in the world. Who? The talking heads paid to do so?
Winse 3y ago
huh...I always thought of the US as a republic with some democratic features. I mean that's why we have things like the electoral college. Your voice influences but doesn't not actually drive.
edgyquant 3y ago
[flagged]
wongarsu 3y ago
Well, I would have said that the base criteria for a democracy is that the government is an extension of the will of the people (hence the name). But we can agree that Power separation and Representativity are reasonable proxies. But the US isn't well set up for representativity at all. Without going into the finer issues like gerrymandering or the more controversial things like the electoral college, the core issue is that a first-past-the-post system means there can only be two meaningful parties. So you can only really have two sides, when real issues often are far more nuanced than that.
treflop 3y ago
As a born-and-raised US citizen who went through US schooling and therefore got a load of political science, no. The US is a republic. You could call it a form of democracy, but you would first call it a republic before a democracy. Representativity is what makes it NOT a democracy. James Madison, a US founding father, felt that (direct) democracy led to mob rule and did not think that people directly voting on issues was a good idea. You can read his opinion from 1788 in the Federalist Papers, #55: https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-papers/text-51-60#s-lg-box-wrapper-25493431 https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-papers/text-51-60#s-lg-box... "Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob." - Alexander Hamilton or James Madison The world of political science is massive. There is no "best" system because once you read through this entire body of study, you realize it consists of compromises. People have been trying to figure this out for a very long time.
- dragonelite 3y ago
  Voting behavior can be easily hacked as one can see in world elections. Its not for nothing you have analyst, advisors or other sort of experts in the field of electioneering.
  - ecommerceguy 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - ecommerceguy 3y ago
      I'm sure it's deep staters down voting me. That's fine. Oh look, even the Indian Supreme court state election machines can be manipulated by partisan humans. Go figure. https://www.thehindu.com/elections/supreme-court-rejects-a-return-to-paper-ballots-says-machines-are-accurate-unless-maligned-by-human-bias/article68072488.ece https://www.thehindu.com/elections/supreme-court-rejects-a-r... edit> That was the fasted one yet!

edgyquant 3y ago

[flagged]

ParetoOptimal 3y ago
Well this republic idea isn't working out well in practice. I prefer trying ranked choice voting and democracy to this nonsense.
- sickofparadox 3y ago
  What choices are you ranking if not potential political representatives?
- xscott 3y ago
  Many people suggest ranked choice, but it has the significant problem that you might have little idea who won or who is leading until the very last vote is in. One vote in a close race could kick off a chain of events that changes everything. And for a Federal election, a stupid and stubborn state (like the one I'm living in) could stall and delay submitting their results for weeks. Approval voting doesn't have this problem. When there's a clear winner, it's obvious and you can get back to business.
  - DeepSeaTortoise 3y ago
    TBH, "counting votes" for weeks is an issue exclusive to banana republics. There are plenty of functional democracies like Germany, in which the votes are counted by the end of the day and the results dont change by several percentage points during the next few weeks after the election.
    - xscott 3y ago
      Fair enough, but the last US presidential election had this banana nonsense going on with various recounts lasting for weeks. Maybe you can fix all the states in the entire country while you rework the election system, but since ranked choice and approval voting both solve the two party problem, I don't know why you'd risk the down side for ranked choice.

zrn900 3y ago

Here's what happens in 'better democracy implementations': https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/16/germany_palestine#:~:text=He%20was%20also%20banned%20from,former%20finance%20minister%20of%20Greece https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/16/germany_palestine#:~:...