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Its inevitable because of the power dynamics between democracies and totalitarian regimes. Democracies thought that with the internet they would topple totalita

Its inevitable because of the power dynamics between democracies and totalitarian regimes. Democracies thought that with the internet they would topple totalitarianism because of free flow of information. They forgot that totalitarian regimes can just imprison and shoot all who have access to and propagate the information. Now the wheel has turned and the same regimes are weaponizing AI and shill farms to create enough propaganda to destabilize a democracy for the price of a few dollars. We're all headed towards a global race to the bottom because of it, the dream of the early internet has been crushed because of human evil.

imjonse 2y ago
Who needs outside interference when we have such opinions like yours at home?
raincole 2y ago
It's easy to point fingers at "totalitarian regimes". Oceania is always at wars for a reason.
- fransje26 2y ago
  Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.
user3939382 2y ago
“Democracy” like the one we have in the US where voters are powerless to change policy https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...
- Paratoner 2y ago
  [flagged]
- Almondsetat 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - MSFT_Edging 2y ago
    Hello fellow user Almodestat, from Annapolis Junction, MD.
  - user3939382 2y ago
    If I’m interpreting your joke/comment correctly, if you object to the complete corruption of the US political process by special interests you must be a Russian propagandist, is that correct? I don’t want to put words in your mouth.
- wongarsu 2y ago
  US and British democracy certainly aren't the best implementations around. If you wanted to divide and rule you couldn't come up with a better voting system for that than first-past-the-post.
  - colpabar 2y ago
    First past the post is fine. It's the people who don't vote the way I do that are the problem!
    - mptest 2y ago
      without the sarcasm people not voting is a huge issue. voter suppression is a central tactic for conservatives. Openly their cult leader recognizes "if everyone voted we'd never have another republican elected president"
      - svieira 2y ago
        Information-free voting is also a huge issue. Having everyone vote-as-Tim-does is rule-by-Tim but by another name.
  - torcete 2y ago
    Interesting, some say that the US is the only real democracy in the world. The UK is not, nor any other countries in the world. They base this assertion in two principles that any democracy should fulfill: 1) Power separation. 2) Representativity. I can see that you don't agree with this, but what country has a better system then?
    - archerx 2y ago
      Switzerland, we can actually vote for things instead of voting for people who we hope will vote for what we want.
      - ghaff 2y ago
- throwaway984393 2y ago
  I'm sure that makes the medicine go down easier, but we're not powerless at all. We choose to have no say. We choose not to run our own campaigns and get grassroots approval. Less than half of us vote. The rest accept the status quo, despite the fact that they don't have to. We give away our power. All of the methods by which a dark horse can run and win are there. The state will not remove your votes or intimidate voters not to vote for you. You will not be poisoned by radioactive toxins to prevent you from running. You will not be kidnapped, or your family threatened, or a bomb set off in polling locations. This isn't in any way like so many other actually repressive regimes. All you have to do is go and run. We have more power in this society than anyone in any other. So why do we claim we're powerless? Because it makes us feel better that we're so lazy. I could run for office, but that might restrict my time watching The Office. Better to just say that running is pointless, so I don't have to make the change I want to see. And even if you don't want to run, you can vote for independents, you can complain to your representatives, you can organize your friends and neighbors to petition local government for local reforms and participate in larger state and federal efforts. Individually we may be a drop in the bucket, but collectively we are a wave. You can't say that isn't powerful.
  - Intermernet 2y ago
    I vouched for this comment to be non-dead. I'm not a US citizen, but I can see why this comment would be contentious for US citizens. I also think it's a valid point, and doesn't cross any HN guidelines (more than other comments that exist in this thread). I'd like to give it another chance and see how it goes.
    - Der_Einzige 2y ago
      People who downvoted or flagged the above post are themselves examples of what’s killing HN. Bunch of snowflakes who don’t want to hear the truth: Political engagement works and matters even at the small scale - we are just lazy as hell. Look to how unpopular CSPAN is. Everyone says they want the “truth” of politics. The truth is on CSPAN, and no one watches it.
      - 2y ago
- ngcc_hk 2y ago
  How about a pm last less than 60 days? Any totalitarian country like that. We are talking about a country my exam question is “all Brits are slaves, discuss”. Still. Anyway may be you are the bots we talked about. And if not even more sad.
- edgyquant 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - shepherdjerred 2y ago
    How is the US not a democracy? We vote for representatives who govern on our behalf.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - School-Cotton 2y ago
      For whatever reason there’s a fringe, but somewhat common, tendency in the U.S. to insist that “democracy” means “direct democracy” and that “republic” means what everyone else calls “representative democracy”. This is then used to derail people complaining about the U.S. being undemocratic, as you can see here. I have no idea where this meme comes from, because for 99% of people “republic” just means not governed by a monarch or traditional aristocracy and is orthogonal to democracy. For example, Canada is democratic but not a republic, North Korea is a republic but not democratic, Saudi Arabia is neither, and France is both.
    - wredue 2y ago
      Honestly, if you look up the definition of republic and democracy, if you blink, you’ll miss differences, and even then, the USA is best described as a democratic republic. Obviously, the last several years has taught us why the right wing is so intent on getting rid of the word “democracy” in describing the USA, and they fundamentally do not believe in the right to vote.
- burningChrome 2y ago
  Not true. Too many people think they have to run for congress or president instead of thinking more locally. Jesse Ventura is a great example of what the founders envisioned as encouraging people to get involved in politics. He was unhappy with the local city government. He ran for mayor and won and spent four years in charge. Went back to his private sector life and then five years after leaving office, ran for governor and won. I've had friends get involved in their local politics and have been effective. My buddy was a professional skateboarder and run twice for a local office and he barely lost both times and has vowed to stay involved in his cities politics. You're seeing more and more people getting involved at the national level who said they never had any inkling of getting involved in politics but have thrown their hats in the ring. There was a reason the founders made the barrier extremely low to get involved in politics, either locally or nationally. They wanted people to have a say in how their governments are run and to make it simple for them to be the change they want to see.
  - rubylark 2y ago
    As a counterpoint, Jesse Ventura was famous before he got into politics. It's much harder to win when no one knows who you are.
    - burningChrome 2y ago
      Fair point, however. . . Jesse had been out of wrestling for years before running for mayor of Brooklyn Park. You have to remember this was back in the late 80,s early 90's when there wasn't any internet or social media. I remember reading an article about him resolving some issue the voters brought to him thinking, "I had no idea the guy was still living in the state, let alone running a city as their mayor." I will give you he did use his radio show to air his grievances and tell stories about his wrestling years and being a frogman (the precursors to the SEALs) so that did bring him back into the public spotlight. He ironically had always dabbled in politics, and even appeared on Howard Stern saying he was going to run for president with gulp Donald Trump who made a guest appearance with him talking about it when he was governor. So you're right, by the time he ran for governor, he was back to being very well known and leveraged that to a degree where he had to give up his radio show in order to run for governor.
anlsh 2y ago
A ridiculous fairy tale. Dictatorships need hardly interfere with the "stability" of a society which launches a bloody and monumentally expensive temper tantrum in response to 9/11 but allows thousands more to die each year for want of basic medicines
- hmmmcurious1 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - sparrowInHand 2y ago
    [flagged]
- another2another 2y ago
  >A <$insert hyper emotional disparagement>. Dictatorships need hardly interfere with the "stability" of a society which <$insert random example some democratic failure>. And yet they do interfere. We've seen plenty of evidence, from Russia, Iran, China and (I still can't believe how they got competent at this, but there you go) North Korea. And in some cases they've been successful at destabilizing formerly fairly sane and stable democratic countries. The social divisions that the UK And US currently find themselves in could be attributed in part to this steady drip of caustic interference. However, as a "short term pessimist, but long term optimist" (Hitchens), I'm optimistic that we will start to introspect a bit more as societies and begin to be less easily manipulated. It will take a while, but I believe even now the tide is turning.
  - MSFT_Edging 2y ago
    > The social divisions that the UK And US currently find themselves in could be attributed in part to this steady drip of caustic interference. Please look away from the curtain hiding rising wealth inequality, cost of living, and the financialization of daily needs. There are no material explanation for the rising contradictions. It is simply our boogymen misleading our population. It is good we as a society make bets on housing! Who needs to sleep under a roof when you can own shares!
Funes- 2y ago
We don't live in democracies, but simulations of democracies. It's all about outward appearance.
- hmmmcurious1 2y ago
  Explain how you can have snowdens discussion and this thread in public? Doing the same critique of government policy in russia or china would get you disappeared real fast.
  - solarengineer 2y ago
    One possibility: You are allowed to have such discussions because these will be ineffective and forgotten within half a day while bringing about zero policy change. Most of us around the world do not know how to bring about a change in policy. Intellectual exchanges over such forums are certainly not the way.
  - enriquto 2y ago
    It's funny that you mention Snowden, a person who exposed a whole lot of anti-democratic stuff going on in his own country and became a widely celebrated patriotic hero for his courageous work. I guess the people guilty of anti-democratic behavior went to justice, while Snowden himself was offered protection and a well-deserved respectable position to continue his fight for human rights. Just like other notorious human-rights activists like Manning, Swartz or Assange.
    - bogtog 2y ago
      > became a widely celebrated patriotic hero for his courageous work When leaks happened, traditional opinion polls seemed to show a 1:1 split on support vs. disapproval. Online polls seemed to show a 2:1 split, favoring support. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentary_on_Edward_Snowden%27s_disclosure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentary_on_Edward_Snowden%2...
  - barfbagginus 2y ago
    Seems like Snowden had to become a fugitive and seek asylum in a foreign nation to have his discussion. This is quite human.
throwamrr 2y ago
[flagged]
- seper8 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - hmmmcurious1 2y ago
    [flagged]
- w8whut 2y ago
  > Trump is a racist and should be punished Being a racist and having racist beliefs is not a crime that should be punished by law. You'd be fully in the territory of thought crime at that point. To my knowledge, Trump has not actually taken discriminatory actions nor proposed any legislature to systematically oppress people again. the term racism is getting thrown around so much nowadays it hardly has any meaning anymore...
  - Hikikomori 2y ago
    You can be racist and also not able to create large scale racist policy change due to incompetence.
  - throwtt 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - defrost 2y ago
      Why not both, besides, everybody lies at some point or another so your second alternative is beige .. s/Democrats/<any group>/ works just as well.
  - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
    >To my knowledge, Trump has not actually taken discriminatory actions nor proposed any legislature to systematically oppress people again. What a brazenly dishonest and bad faith statement.
sparrowInHand 2y ago
The true problem started with the promise of western lifestyle with a planet that can not support such a lifestyle, and it cant be taken back. And due to the assymetric destabilizing effects of advanced technology, we can not science our way out of this trap. So, we walk the middle road, augmenting society to better the angles of our nature with panopticons etc. while the planet still can carry us.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Gen Z can be the first generation with both improving living standards and a sustainable environment. https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/hannah-ritchie/not-the-end-of-the-world/9780316536752/ https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/hannah-ritchie/not-...
- genman 2y ago
  Planet could have easily supported this lifestyle for everyone on the planet in 50s but everyone else but developed nations started a mass reproduction race where population didn't just double but increased tenfold.
xbmcuser 2y ago
Western democracies had no interest in supporting democracies in other places they have been complicit in bringing down fledging democracies all over the the world the latest example is Pakistan. Democracy and Justice is only for themselves it also shows how Israel can commit the worse war crimes and atrocities and most western politicians and media defend it.
- throwdemo 2y ago
  Pakistan has never been a democracy. The one went to prison was also elected by the army fyi. It's been like that since it's inception. By the way there is nothing (no valuable resources) for outsiders to even get involved. Blame nobody but the Pakistani army for it's situation
  - xbmcuser 2y ago
    That is false propaganda. He was allowed to get into power by the army but his government hobbled. He would have been in power in 2013 if clean elections had been held let alone 2018 he was not brought into power. He was not elected by the army and the latest elections has shown it
outime 2y ago
Sure, surveil all internet traffic is just to prevent 'human evil,' not to perpetuate it further. I can't even imagine writing this comparison of democracy vs. totalitarian regimes while the 'democracy' is behaving in the same way as a totalitarian regime in this context.
javajosh 2y ago
> to create enough propaganda to destabilize a democracy Better explained by "Internet Fuckwad Theory" https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/greater-internet-fuckwad-theory https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/greater-internet-fuckwad-theo.... It turns out anonymity isn't even necessary: attention is all you need.
karma_pharmer 2y ago
The definition of "the state" used to be "the entity with a monopoly on violence". I think it has changed to "the entity with a monopoly on surveillance".
- westmeal 2y ago
  It's gotta be both because if you don't know who to brutalize you can have all the brutalizers in the world but not know how to use em. Look at how the Stasi operated, intel is crucial for maintaining control of a state.
bell-cot 2y ago
Reality: 's/Democracies thought that/Western techno-utopians believed, and feel-good politicians promised, that/' I never got the sense that real grown-ups, who knew history, believed any such "the internet will topple" twaddle. Carefully-delivered truths (think Voice of America) can annoy and mildly undermine totalitarian regimes. If you want to do more - well, in WWII, British and American bombers dropped vastly more high explosives than information leaflets on the Axis powers.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  Ultimately, authoritative regimes are supported by self-interest of key pillars of power (e.g. the military in Iran's case). As long as an authoritative regime keeps these balanced against factions opposed to it, the regime can remain stable without popular support. (Although doing so while running a functional and healthy economy is more difficult)
dylan604 2y ago
Why is it that having one's own weapon turned against them never thought of as such a realistic outcome? Hubris?
kome 2y ago
Please. PLEASE. can't we stop pretending that random russian/chinese bot do influence us? On twitter??? it's bullshit. Our media and friends are much more powerful. It's NOT inevitable. Let's not be jaded. This law is terrible.
raxxorraxor 2y ago
I disagree, it is far from inevitable. I think this is a huge mirage. People believe others fall for propaganda en masse and fail to account for their own lack of critical thinking. This is a typical fear reaction. "Disinformation" threatens our democracies, so we need to give up X and Y and allow government access to our most private devices and information. It is wrong of course. And if we would ask for an example of a case of disinformation that did threaten democracy, we can wait a long, long time.
zrn900 2y ago
Here's the democracy that you are living in: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-co... The capitalist West was not 'totalitarian' only because up until recently, it was possible to condition or distract the public through the corporate-controlled media. When the people gained the means to share information and organize and the corporate media was not enough to keep them down anymore, the system showed its true nature and stomped down the Occupy movement on the pavement. Sure, they did not jail them for their 'free speech', but they fined tens of thousands of dollars each for 'trespassing on PUBLIC property', effectively bankrupting many students, working-class activists etc, and sending a message to everyone else who 'had ideas'. Some say that 'Angloamerican democracies are flawed of course'. The above is not flawed. Americans say that neither their vote nor their opinion has any effect on policy (~70%+ on polls each) leaving aside the recent research that shows it to be so, and when they try to change anything, they get what was done to Occupy done to them. Its not democratic And for those who think that there is more freedom in Europe: https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/16/germany_palestine#:~:text=He%20was%20also%20banned%20from,former%20finance%20minister%20of%20Greece https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/16/germany_palestine#:~:.... You have freedom as long as you don't disturb the ruling class or go against the incumbent foreign policy.

imjonse 2y ago

Who needs outside interference when we have such opinions like yours at home?

raincole 2y ago

It's easy to point fingers at "totalitarian regimes". Oceania is always at wars for a reason.

fransje26 2y ago
Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.

user3939382 2y ago

“Democracy” like the one we have in the US where voters are powerless to change policy https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

Paratoner 2y ago
[flagged]
Almondsetat 2y ago
[flagged]
- MSFT_Edging 2y ago
  Hello fellow user Almodestat, from Annapolis Junction, MD.
- user3939382 2y ago
  If I’m interpreting your joke/comment correctly, if you object to the complete corruption of the US political process by special interests you must be a Russian propagandist, is that correct? I don’t want to put words in your mouth.
wongarsu 2y ago
US and British democracy certainly aren't the best implementations around. If you wanted to divide and rule you couldn't come up with a better voting system for that than first-past-the-post.
- colpabar 2y ago
  First past the post is fine. It's the people who don't vote the way I do that are the problem!
  - mptest 2y ago
    without the sarcasm people not voting is a huge issue. voter suppression is a central tactic for conservatives. Openly their cult leader recognizes "if everyone voted we'd never have another republican elected president"
    - svieira 2y ago
      Information-free voting is also a huge issue. Having everyone vote-as-Tim-does is rule-by-Tim but by another name.
- torcete 2y ago
  Interesting, some say that the US is the only real democracy in the world. The UK is not, nor any other countries in the world. They base this assertion in two principles that any democracy should fulfill: 1) Power separation. 2) Representativity. I can see that you don't agree with this, but what country has a better system then?
  - archerx 2y ago
    Switzerland, we can actually vote for things instead of voting for people who we hope will vote for what we want.
    - ghaff 2y ago
throwaway984393 2y ago
I'm sure that makes the medicine go down easier, but we're not powerless at all. We choose to have no say. We choose not to run our own campaigns and get grassroots approval. Less than half of us vote. The rest accept the status quo, despite the fact that they don't have to. We give away our power. All of the methods by which a dark horse can run and win are there. The state will not remove your votes or intimidate voters not to vote for you. You will not be poisoned by radioactive toxins to prevent you from running. You will not be kidnapped, or your family threatened, or a bomb set off in polling locations. This isn't in any way like so many other actually repressive regimes. All you have to do is go and run. We have more power in this society than anyone in any other. So why do we claim we're powerless? Because it makes us feel better that we're so lazy. I could run for office, but that might restrict my time watching The Office. Better to just say that running is pointless, so I don't have to make the change I want to see. And even if you don't want to run, you can vote for independents, you can complain to your representatives, you can organize your friends and neighbors to petition local government for local reforms and participate in larger state and federal efforts. Individually we may be a drop in the bucket, but collectively we are a wave. You can't say that isn't powerful.
- Intermernet 2y ago
  I vouched for this comment to be non-dead. I'm not a US citizen, but I can see why this comment would be contentious for US citizens. I also think it's a valid point, and doesn't cross any HN guidelines (more than other comments that exist in this thread). I'd like to give it another chance and see how it goes.
  - Der_Einzige 2y ago
    People who downvoted or flagged the above post are themselves examples of what’s killing HN. Bunch of snowflakes who don’t want to hear the truth: Political engagement works and matters even at the small scale - we are just lazy as hell. Look to how unpopular CSPAN is. Everyone says they want the “truth” of politics. The truth is on CSPAN, and no one watches it.
    - 2y ago
ngcc_hk 2y ago
How about a pm last less than 60 days? Any totalitarian country like that. We are talking about a country my exam question is “all Brits are slaves, discuss”. Still. Anyway may be you are the bots we talked about. And if not even more sad.
edgyquant 2y ago
[flagged]
- shepherdjerred 2y ago
  How is the US not a democracy? We vote for representatives who govern on our behalf.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - School-Cotton 2y ago
    For whatever reason there’s a fringe, but somewhat common, tendency in the U.S. to insist that “democracy” means “direct democracy” and that “republic” means what everyone else calls “representative democracy”. This is then used to derail people complaining about the U.S. being undemocratic, as you can see here. I have no idea where this meme comes from, because for 99% of people “republic” just means not governed by a monarch or traditional aristocracy and is orthogonal to democracy. For example, Canada is democratic but not a republic, North Korea is a republic but not democratic, Saudi Arabia is neither, and France is both.
  - wredue 2y ago
    Honestly, if you look up the definition of republic and democracy, if you blink, you’ll miss differences, and even then, the USA is best described as a democratic republic. Obviously, the last several years has taught us why the right wing is so intent on getting rid of the word “democracy” in describing the USA, and they fundamentally do not believe in the right to vote.
burningChrome 2y ago
Not true. Too many people think they have to run for congress or president instead of thinking more locally. Jesse Ventura is a great example of what the founders envisioned as encouraging people to get involved in politics. He was unhappy with the local city government. He ran for mayor and won and spent four years in charge. Went back to his private sector life and then five years after leaving office, ran for governor and won. I've had friends get involved in their local politics and have been effective. My buddy was a professional skateboarder and run twice for a local office and he barely lost both times and has vowed to stay involved in his cities politics. You're seeing more and more people getting involved at the national level who said they never had any inkling of getting involved in politics but have thrown their hats in the ring. There was a reason the founders made the barrier extremely low to get involved in politics, either locally or nationally. They wanted people to have a say in how their governments are run and to make it simple for them to be the change they want to see.
- rubylark 2y ago
  As a counterpoint, Jesse Ventura was famous before he got into politics. It's much harder to win when no one knows who you are.
  - burningChrome 2y ago
    Fair point, however. . . Jesse had been out of wrestling for years before running for mayor of Brooklyn Park. You have to remember this was back in the late 80,s early 90's when there wasn't any internet or social media. I remember reading an article about him resolving some issue the voters brought to him thinking, "I had no idea the guy was still living in the state, let alone running a city as their mayor." I will give you he did use his radio show to air his grievances and tell stories about his wrestling years and being a frogman (the precursors to the SEALs) so that did bring him back into the public spotlight. He ironically had always dabbled in politics, and even appeared on Howard Stern saying he was going to run for president with gulp Donald Trump who made a guest appearance with him talking about it when he was governor. So you're right, by the time he ran for governor, he was back to being very well known and leveraged that to a degree where he had to give up his radio show in order to run for governor.

anlsh 2y ago

A ridiculous fairy tale. Dictatorships need hardly interfere with the "stability" of a society which launches a bloody and monumentally expensive temper tantrum in response to 9/11 but allows thousands more to die each year for want of basic medicines

hmmmcurious1 2y ago
[flagged]
- sparrowInHand 2y ago
  [flagged]
another2another 2y ago
>A <$insert hyper emotional disparagement>. Dictatorships need hardly interfere with the "stability" of a society which <$insert random example some democratic failure>. And yet they do interfere. We've seen plenty of evidence, from Russia, Iran, China and (I still can't believe how they got competent at this, but there you go) North Korea. And in some cases they've been successful at destabilizing formerly fairly sane and stable democratic countries. The social divisions that the UK And US currently find themselves in could be attributed in part to this steady drip of caustic interference. However, as a "short term pessimist, but long term optimist" (Hitchens), I'm optimistic that we will start to introspect a bit more as societies and begin to be less easily manipulated. It will take a while, but I believe even now the tide is turning.
- MSFT_Edging 2y ago
  > The social divisions that the UK And US currently find themselves in could be attributed in part to this steady drip of caustic interference. Please look away from the curtain hiding rising wealth inequality, cost of living, and the financialization of daily needs. There are no material explanation for the rising contradictions. It is simply our boogymen misleading our population. It is good we as a society make bets on housing! Who needs to sleep under a roof when you can own shares!

Funes- 2y ago

We don't live in democracies, but simulations of democracies. It's all about outward appearance.

hmmmcurious1 2y ago
Explain how you can have snowdens discussion and this thread in public? Doing the same critique of government policy in russia or china would get you disappeared real fast.
- solarengineer 2y ago
  One possibility: You are allowed to have such discussions because these will be ineffective and forgotten within half a day while bringing about zero policy change. Most of us around the world do not know how to bring about a change in policy. Intellectual exchanges over such forums are certainly not the way.
- enriquto 2y ago
  It's funny that you mention Snowden, a person who exposed a whole lot of anti-democratic stuff going on in his own country and became a widely celebrated patriotic hero for his courageous work. I guess the people guilty of anti-democratic behavior went to justice, while Snowden himself was offered protection and a well-deserved respectable position to continue his fight for human rights. Just like other notorious human-rights activists like Manning, Swartz or Assange.
  - bogtog 2y ago
    > became a widely celebrated patriotic hero for his courageous work When leaks happened, traditional opinion polls seemed to show a 1:1 split on support vs. disapproval. Online polls seemed to show a 2:1 split, favoring support. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentary_on_Edward_Snowden%27s_disclosure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentary_on_Edward_Snowden%2...
- barfbagginus 2y ago
  Seems like Snowden had to become a fugitive and seek asylum in a foreign nation to have his discussion. This is quite human.

throwamrr 2y ago

[flagged]

seper8 2y ago
[flagged]
- hmmmcurious1 2y ago
  [flagged]
w8whut 2y ago
> Trump is a racist and should be punished Being a racist and having racist beliefs is not a crime that should be punished by law. You'd be fully in the territory of thought crime at that point. To my knowledge, Trump has not actually taken discriminatory actions nor proposed any legislature to systematically oppress people again. the term racism is getting thrown around so much nowadays it hardly has any meaning anymore...
- Hikikomori 2y ago
  You can be racist and also not able to create large scale racist policy change due to incompetence.
- throwtt 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - defrost 2y ago
    Why not both, besides, everybody lies at some point or another so your second alternative is beige .. s/Democrats/<any group>/ works just as well.
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
  >To my knowledge, Trump has not actually taken discriminatory actions nor proposed any legislature to systematically oppress people again. What a brazenly dishonest and bad faith statement.

sparrowInHand 2y ago

The true problem started with the promise of western lifestyle with a planet that can not support such a lifestyle, and it cant be taken back. And due to the assymetric destabilizing effects of advanced technology, we can not science our way out of this trap. So, we walk the middle road, augmenting society to better the angles of our nature with panopticons etc. while the planet still can carry us.

bryanlarsen 2y ago
Gen Z can be the first generation with both improving living standards and a sustainable environment. https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/hannah-ritchie/not-the-end-of-the-world/9780316536752/ https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/hannah-ritchie/not-...
genman 2y ago
Planet could have easily supported this lifestyle for everyone on the planet in 50s but everyone else but developed nations started a mass reproduction race where population didn't just double but increased tenfold.

xbmcuser 2y ago

Western democracies had no interest in supporting democracies in other places they have been complicit in bringing down fledging democracies all over the the world the latest example is Pakistan. Democracy and Justice is only for themselves it also shows how Israel can commit the worse war crimes and atrocities and most western politicians and media defend it.

throwdemo 2y ago
Pakistan has never been a democracy. The one went to prison was also elected by the army fyi. It's been like that since it's inception. By the way there is nothing (no valuable resources) for outsiders to even get involved. Blame nobody but the Pakistani army for it's situation
- xbmcuser 2y ago
  That is false propaganda. He was allowed to get into power by the army but his government hobbled. He would have been in power in 2013 if clean elections had been held let alone 2018 he was not brought into power. He was not elected by the army and the latest elections has shown it

outime 2y ago

Sure, surveil all internet traffic is just to prevent 'human evil,' not to perpetuate it further. I can't even imagine writing this comparison of democracy vs. totalitarian regimes while the 'democracy' is behaving in the same way as a totalitarian regime in this context.

javajosh 2y ago

> to create enough propaganda to destabilize a democracy Better explained by "Internet Fuckwad Theory" https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/greater-internet-fuckwad-theory https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/greater-internet-fuckwad-theo.... It turns out anonymity isn't even necessary: attention is all you need.

karma_pharmer 2y ago

The definition of "the state" used to be "the entity with a monopoly on violence". I think it has changed to "the entity with a monopoly on surveillance".

westmeal 2y ago
It's gotta be both because if you don't know who to brutalize you can have all the brutalizers in the world but not know how to use em. Look at how the Stasi operated, intel is crucial for maintaining control of a state.

bell-cot 2y ago

Reality: 's/Democracies thought that/Western techno-utopians believed, and feel-good politicians promised, that/' I never got the sense that real grown-ups, who knew history, believed any such "the internet will topple" twaddle. Carefully-delivered truths (think Voice of America) can annoy and mildly undermine totalitarian regimes. If you want to do more - well, in WWII, British and American bombers dropped vastly more high explosives than information leaflets on the Axis powers.

ethbr1 2y ago
Ultimately, authoritative regimes are supported by self-interest of key pillars of power (e.g. the military in Iran's case). As long as an authoritative regime keeps these balanced against factions opposed to it, the regime can remain stable without popular support. (Although doing so while running a functional and healthy economy is more difficult)

dylan604 2y ago

Why is it that having one's own weapon turned against them never thought of as such a realistic outcome? Hubris?

kome 2y ago

Please. PLEASE. can't we stop pretending that random russian/chinese bot do influence us? On twitter??? it's bullshit. Our media and friends are much more powerful. It's NOT inevitable. Let's not be jaded. This law is terrible.

raxxorraxor 2y ago

I disagree, it is far from inevitable. I think this is a huge mirage. People believe others fall for propaganda en masse and fail to account for their own lack of critical thinking. This is a typical fear reaction. "Disinformation" threatens our democracies, so we need to give up X and Y and allow government access to our most private devices and information. It is wrong of course. And if we would ask for an example of a case of disinformation that did threaten democracy, we can wait a long, long time.

zrn900 2y ago

Here's the democracy that you are living in: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-co... The capitalist West was not 'totalitarian' only because up until recently, it was possible to condition or distract the public through the corporate-controlled media. When the people gained the means to share information and organize and the corporate media was not enough to keep them down anymore, the system showed its true nature and stomped down the Occupy movement on the pavement. Sure, they did not jail them for their 'free speech', but they fined tens of thousands of dollars each for 'trespassing on PUBLIC property', effectively bankrupting many students, working-class activists etc, and sending a message to everyone else who 'had ideas'. Some say that 'Angloamerican democracies are flawed of course'. The above is not flawed. Americans say that neither their vote nor their opinion has any effect on policy (~70%+ on polls each) leaving aside the recent research that shows it to be so, and when they try to change anything, they get what was done to Occupy done to them. Its not democratic And for those who think that there is more freedom in Europe: https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/16/germany_palestine#:~:text=He%20was%20also%20banned%20from,former%20finance%20minister%20of%20Greece https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/16/germany_palestine#:~:.... You have freedom as long as you don't disturb the ruling class or go against the incumbent foreign policy.