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I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: kill the secondary market. Live nation should be broken up but a big driver of cost is the scalpers/hedgers who buy o

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: kill the secondary market. Live nation should be broken up but a big driver of cost is the scalpers/hedgers who buy out everything and put it on StubHub. Just make all sales final. Check IDs at the door, or use technology to speed up identity verification (mail out rfids, etc). Sucks if you get sick or whatever, just like many things in life where you cancel last minute. It’ll substantially decrease cost due to these bottom feeders.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> a big driver of cost is the scalpers/hedgers who buy out everything and put it on StubHub Not true. About "10% of [performing arts] tickets sold in the primary market are later re-sold by ticket scalpers," increasing to "20-30% of top-tiered seats" [1]. Banning scalping increases attendance but results in "fewer distinct productions...shown in metropolitan areas or states that require ticket resellers to be licensed or that prohibit resale above face value." Empirically, markets with scalpers have lower ticket prices [2], though this has been studied more in sports than the performing arts. Which makes sense. Scalpers de facto underwrite the seller's risk. [1] https://www.oxy.edu/sites/default/files/assets/Economics/Chiou/boyle_and_chiou_resale.pdf https://www.oxy.edu/sites/default/files/assets/Economics/Chi... [2] https://www.jstor.org/stable/27698042 https://www.jstor.org/stable/27698042
- crabmusket 3y ago
  > Empirically, markets with scalpers have lower ticket prices [2] I haven't read the full paper yet, just the abstract, but the abstract talks about ticket window prices. Do they analyse the prices actually paid by the average attendee, which includes prices paid to scalpers? Or am I misunderstanding the term "ticket window"? As a lay person, my gut asks: if scalpers don't cause attenders to pay more overall, then why do they exist?
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Do they analyse the prices actually paid by the average attendee, which includes prices paid to scalpers? Unclear--the source describes the price variable as the "weighted average of seats normally available to the public" [1]. (It's also from 1992.) > if scalpers don't cause attenders to pay more overall, then why do they exist? Same reason underwriters do: they reduce risk for the seller and increase convenience for the buyer. You can absolutely have a situation where a minority of buyers pay more, thereby allowing the remaining 90% to pay less. [1] https://sci-hub.ru/https://www.jstor.org/stable/2487999 https://sci-hub.ru/https://www.jstor.org/stable/2487999
  - hervature 3y ago
    The scalper is trading volatility (they may or may not sell the ticket for a higher price) for the opportunity of a return. The venue is getting the opposite side of the deal. Guaranteed income now.
    - crabmusket 3y ago
      But if, on average, scalpers didn't get their payout, then they wouldn't take the risk right? Unless scalpers as a class are economically irrational?
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > if, on average, scalpers didn't get their payout, then they wouldn't take the risk The point is they can get their pay-out while the venue/artist and consumers win. Scalper gets paid. Venue and artist get stability. Consumer who buys from the scalper gets availability. And the other 90% of consumers get cheaper prices.
        crabmusket 3y ago
        I see, I guess that makes sense in theory.
- matwood 3y ago
  Yeah, I used to get great tickets and good prices from scalpers for football and basketball games. Scalpers only work when the demand is so far above the supply. See Taylor Swift. The way to kill scalpers is to do more shows, but she doesn't want to play to a 1/2 full stadium. She'll never do enough shows to completely satisfy demand which will keep prices high.
crabmusket 3y ago
> Just make all sales final. Couldn't you mandate tickets must be sold back to the original seller if you e.g. can't make it to the event? Rather than to a third party?
- bonestamp2 3y ago
  Or just limit the markup. Since it's all digital, they know the original price of the tickets.
  - magicalhippo 3y ago
    That's what we do here in Norway. They introduced a law saying you can't resell tickets for more than the original purchase price.
mixmastamyk 3y ago
My whole life, scalpers have always come thru when I didn't plan far ahead. We don't need any more surveillance, data-mining and sales, thank you. Your stated cure is worse than the disease.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> a big driver of cost is the scalpers/hedgers who buy out everything and put it on StubHub Not true. About "10% of [performing arts] tickets sold in the primary market are later re-sold by ticket scalpers," increasing to "20-30% of top-tiered seats" [1]. Banning scalping increases attendance but results in "fewer distinct productions...shown in metropolitan areas or states that require ticket resellers to be licensed or that prohibit resale above face value." Empirically, markets with scalpers have lower ticket prices [2], though this has been studied more in sports than the performing arts. Which makes sense. Scalpers de facto underwrite the seller's risk. [1] https://www.oxy.edu/sites/default/files/assets/Economics/Chiou/boyle_and_chiou_resale.pdf https://www.oxy.edu/sites/default/files/assets/Economics/Chi... [2] https://www.jstor.org/stable/27698042 https://www.jstor.org/stable/27698042

crabmusket 3y ago
> Empirically, markets with scalpers have lower ticket prices [2] I haven't read the full paper yet, just the abstract, but the abstract talks about ticket window prices. Do they analyse the prices actually paid by the average attendee, which includes prices paid to scalpers? Or am I misunderstanding the term "ticket window"? As a lay person, my gut asks: if scalpers don't cause attenders to pay more overall, then why do they exist?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Do they analyse the prices actually paid by the average attendee, which includes prices paid to scalpers? Unclear--the source describes the price variable as the "weighted average of seats normally available to the public" [1]. (It's also from 1992.) > if scalpers don't cause attenders to pay more overall, then why do they exist? Same reason underwriters do: they reduce risk for the seller and increase convenience for the buyer. You can absolutely have a situation where a minority of buyers pay more, thereby allowing the remaining 90% to pay less. [1] https://sci-hub.ru/https://www.jstor.org/stable/2487999 https://sci-hub.ru/https://www.jstor.org/stable/2487999
- hervature 3y ago
  The scalper is trading volatility (they may or may not sell the ticket for a higher price) for the opportunity of a return. The venue is getting the opposite side of the deal. Guaranteed income now.
  - crabmusket 3y ago
    But if, on average, scalpers didn't get their payout, then they wouldn't take the risk right? Unless scalpers as a class are economically irrational?
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > if, on average, scalpers didn't get their payout, then they wouldn't take the risk The point is they can get their pay-out while the venue/artist and consumers win. Scalper gets paid. Venue and artist get stability. Consumer who buys from the scalper gets availability. And the other 90% of consumers get cheaper prices.
      - crabmusket 3y ago
        I see, I guess that makes sense in theory.
matwood 3y ago
Yeah, I used to get great tickets and good prices from scalpers for football and basketball games. Scalpers only work when the demand is so far above the supply. See Taylor Swift. The way to kill scalpers is to do more shows, but she doesn't want to play to a 1/2 full stadium. She'll never do enough shows to completely satisfy demand which will keep prices high.

crabmusket 3y ago

> Just make all sales final. Couldn't you mandate tickets must be sold back to the original seller if you e.g. can't make it to the event? Rather than to a third party?

bonestamp2 3y ago
Or just limit the markup. Since it's all digital, they know the original price of the tickets.
- magicalhippo 3y ago
  That's what we do here in Norway. They introduced a law saying you can't resell tickets for more than the original purchase price.

mixmastamyk 3y ago

My whole life, scalpers have always come thru when I didn't plan far ahead. We don't need any more surveillance, data-mining and sales, thank you. Your stated cure is worse than the disease.