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Thank you, as a German paying absurd electricity prices I applaud this nuance.

by Roritharr 2y ago

ctrw 2y ago
If no one can afford electricity we can reach 100% renewables easily.
- throwaway473825 2y ago
  While true, Germany's absurd electricity-to-gas price ratio makes electrification an uphill battle: https://www.ehpa.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Additional-slide-Elec-vs-gas-price-.png https://www.ehpa.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Additional-s...
flakeoil 2y ago
The high price is probably more related to the fact that Germany relied on gas and oil from Russia in addition to closing down all nuclear power plants. Short and medium term this will show in the price.
piva00 2y ago
I'd like to thanks the German government's policies for the past decades for making me pay absurd electricity prices since the Russian invasion started, even though I live in Sweden with 90+% of renewable electricity generation I'm forced to pay the highest spot price in the EU (aka, gas in Germany) because of Germany's decision to burn coal and gas all the way into 2022... The inertia on modernising Germany is starting to bite your neighbours.
- varjag 2y ago
  Same in Norway. We in effect subsidize German poor decision making. And unlike when Greece collapse happened, the voices in Berlin are suspiciously quiet about austerity. Oh well, as long as they learn the lesson…
  - allendoerfer 2y ago
    > And unlike when Greece collapse happened, the voices in Berlin are suspiciously quiet about austerity. You seem to have no idea whatsoever, what is currently going on in Germany, because literally the opposite is true. Germany is trying to practice austerity and keeping its so called "debt brake" (German states have to have a balanced budget, federal state can take up to 0,35% of GDP in new loans) by cutting subsidies, which is why farmers have been protesting in Berlin etc.
- Symbiote 2y ago
  > I'm forced to pay the highest spot price in the EU This isn't true — prices are the same throughout a zone, but Germany and Sweden are not in the same zone. Sweden has several zones. The total possibly export from Sweden to neighbouring countries is not unlimited, which is the reason for the boundaries. https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/the-power-market/Bidding-areas/ https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/the-power-market/Bidding-ar...
  - piva00 2y ago
    I have a layman understanding of the pricing structure so it's probably not entirely true "paying the highest spot price in the EU" directly but given I was paying 5-10x more for electricity in December 2022 than ever before my best guess is that when Germany was paying a lot more for electricity due to an increase in the price of gas-generated electricity we were affected by the dominoes falling: electricity would be sold for a higher bid if exported to Germany (or to a zone neighbouring Germany which would be selling to Germany) which caused a shortfall in my zone (SE3) increasing the bid price. So even if it was a second order effect I had to pay much more than ever before due to increased spot prices in other zones.
- guappa 2y ago
  > I live in Sweden with 90+% of renewable electricity generation Except sweden isn't self sufficient at all with electricity… Can I really say that I'm 100% renewable if I have a tiny solar panel at home, and for the rest I use power from somewhere else?
  - ffyring 2y ago
    How do you figure that? Sweden exported electricity almost every hour for 2023 (import 40 hours of 8760 = 0.5%). Most of the hours when importing electricity was due to low and negative prices when operators could use water reservoirs as batteries. Currently, there is an obvious overcapacity with an export of almost 20% of production.
    - guappa 2y ago
      For example: https://sputnikglobe.com/20210208/swedes-scoff-as-state-tv-urges-not-to-use-vacuum-cleaners-amid-severe-power-shortages-1082013825.html https://sputnikglobe.com/20210208/swedes-scoff-as-state-tv-u...
- defrost 2y ago
  Sweden's doing pretty well, for sure .. but your assessment seems to be ahead of the IEA's ... https://www.iea.org/countries/sweden https://www.iea.org/countries/sweden Renewables: 66.9% share of power generation, 2022 Sweden's wind is projected to grow: https://balticwind.eu/swedens-wind-power-surge-a-positive-outlook-for-2024-and-beyond https://balticwind.eu/swedens-wind-power-surge-a-positive-ou... but Sweden's grid demand is also projected to rise: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/swedish-power-demand-may-rise-150-by-2045-grid-operator-projects-2024-01-24/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/swedish-power-demand... I'm not sure Sweden's at the 90+% mark yet ... and besides, that's not counting energy demand in the transport sector and non power generation applications.
  - piva00 2y ago
    I'm counting nuclear in the 90+% of electricity (not energy in general where oil will count), not renewable though I agree, more like non-CO2 emitting.
    - defrost 2y ago
      Fair enough - thanks for the clarification.

Thank you, as a German paying absurd electricity prices I applaud this nuance.

ctrw 2y ago

If no one can afford electricity we can reach 100% renewables easily.

throwaway473825 2y ago
While true, Germany's absurd electricity-to-gas price ratio makes electrification an uphill battle: https://www.ehpa.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Additional-slide-Elec-vs-gas-price-.png https://www.ehpa.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Additional-s...

flakeoil 2y ago

The high price is probably more related to the fact that Germany relied on gas and oil from Russia in addition to closing down all nuclear power plants. Short and medium term this will show in the price.

piva00 2y ago

I'd like to thanks the German government's policies for the past decades for making me pay absurd electricity prices since the Russian invasion started, even though I live in Sweden with 90+% of renewable electricity generation I'm forced to pay the highest spot price in the EU (aka, gas in Germany) because of Germany's decision to burn coal and gas all the way into 2022... The inertia on modernising Germany is starting to bite your neighbours.

varjag 2y ago
Same in Norway. We in effect subsidize German poor decision making. And unlike when Greece collapse happened, the voices in Berlin are suspiciously quiet about austerity. Oh well, as long as they learn the lesson…
- allendoerfer 2y ago
  > And unlike when Greece collapse happened, the voices in Berlin are suspiciously quiet about austerity. You seem to have no idea whatsoever, what is currently going on in Germany, because literally the opposite is true. Germany is trying to practice austerity and keeping its so called "debt brake" (German states have to have a balanced budget, federal state can take up to 0,35% of GDP in new loans) by cutting subsidies, which is why farmers have been protesting in Berlin etc.
Symbiote 2y ago
> I'm forced to pay the highest spot price in the EU This isn't true — prices are the same throughout a zone, but Germany and Sweden are not in the same zone. Sweden has several zones. The total possibly export from Sweden to neighbouring countries is not unlimited, which is the reason for the boundaries. https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/the-power-market/Bidding-areas/ https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/the-power-market/Bidding-ar...
- piva00 2y ago
  I have a layman understanding of the pricing structure so it's probably not entirely true "paying the highest spot price in the EU" directly but given I was paying 5-10x more for electricity in December 2022 than ever before my best guess is that when Germany was paying a lot more for electricity due to an increase in the price of gas-generated electricity we were affected by the dominoes falling: electricity would be sold for a higher bid if exported to Germany (or to a zone neighbouring Germany which would be selling to Germany) which caused a shortfall in my zone (SE3) increasing the bid price. So even if it was a second order effect I had to pay much more than ever before due to increased spot prices in other zones.
guappa 2y ago
> I live in Sweden with 90+% of renewable electricity generation Except sweden isn't self sufficient at all with electricity… Can I really say that I'm 100% renewable if I have a tiny solar panel at home, and for the rest I use power from somewhere else?
- ffyring 2y ago
  How do you figure that? Sweden exported electricity almost every hour for 2023 (import 40 hours of 8760 = 0.5%). Most of the hours when importing electricity was due to low and negative prices when operators could use water reservoirs as batteries. Currently, there is an obvious overcapacity with an export of almost 20% of production.
  - guappa 2y ago
    For example: https://sputnikglobe.com/20210208/swedes-scoff-as-state-tv-urges-not-to-use-vacuum-cleaners-amid-severe-power-shortages-1082013825.html https://sputnikglobe.com/20210208/swedes-scoff-as-state-tv-u...
defrost 2y ago
Sweden's doing pretty well, for sure .. but your assessment seems to be ahead of the IEA's ... https://www.iea.org/countries/sweden https://www.iea.org/countries/sweden Renewables: 66.9% share of power generation, 2022 Sweden's wind is projected to grow: https://balticwind.eu/swedens-wind-power-surge-a-positive-outlook-for-2024-and-beyond https://balticwind.eu/swedens-wind-power-surge-a-positive-ou... but Sweden's grid demand is also projected to rise: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/swedish-power-demand-may-rise-150-by-2045-grid-operator-projects-2024-01-24/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/swedish-power-demand... I'm not sure Sweden's at the 90+% mark yet ... and besides, that's not counting energy demand in the transport sector and non power generation applications.
- piva00 2y ago
  I'm counting nuclear in the 90+% of electricity (not energy in general where oil will count), not renewable though I agree, more like non-CO2 emitting.
  - defrost 2y ago
    Fair enough - thanks for the clarification.