6 ms·

They don't care. Source: got swapped on TMo, front-line CSR fixed it but no one else at the business cared; would not even refund my final bill. Solution: move

They don't care. Source: got swapped on TMo, front-line CSR fixed it but no one else at the business cared; would not even refund my final bill. Solution: move to Google Fi. It has a word-of-mouth reputation for being resistant to this, which I believe if nothing else because Google has almost no human support to bribe/phish.

unstatusthequo 2y ago
Still seen swaps with Google Fi. Efani is a much better option if you actually want protection. I am a cyber lawyer and that’s our recommendation to any clients who care. I can’t recall if Efani is throttled on AT&T or Verizon as MVNO, but one isn’t. Easy to ask them.
- WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
  > I can’t recall if Efani is throttled on AT&T or Verizon as MVNO T-Mobile blocks my Google Voice calls. They have to run inside a VPN.
- gruez 2y ago
  >Efani is a much better option if you actually want protection Their website says it's $99/month. That seems a bit steep to me considering all they're providing over a regular provider that charges $29/month is that they do a bit more verification when you claim that you lost your sim. It's not even clear whether they protect against a port-out attack, which is probably worth worrying about as well.
  - twright0 2y ago
    Presumably Efani accomplishes that additional protection by maintaining a human support staff they put more resources into training than the average carrier. That's expensive, especially when you consider that it's a relatively niche service (so small user base to amortize that cost over) and presumably only used by people that really care about sim swaps, likely because they are frequently targeted for sim swaps, and thus the training needs to really work. They also have no other lines of business like device sales/financing that could help cover those human operational costs. That, plus the fact that it's a premium service that is mostly only useful to higher net worth / higher income people, makes it seem reasonable that it would be quite expensive relative to a regular provider.
    - gruez 2y ago
      >Presumably Efani accomplishes that additional protection by maintaining a human support staff they put more resources into training than the average carrier. That's expensive, especially when you consider that it's a relatively niche service (so small user base to amortize that cost over) and presumably only used by people that really care about sim swaps, likely because they are frequently targeted for sim swaps, and thus the training needs to really work. According to the BLS "Computer User Support Specialists" get paid $30 on average[1]. Whatever training they give to staff to resist sim-swap attacks, I can't imagine they can't be more complicated than the certifications that "Computer User Support Specialists" have to get through, so I think it's reasonable to model their support costs at $30/hr per person. With the premium they're charging over a budget MVNO they can afford two support people per customer. How many fraudulent sim swap attacks could the worst client possibly attract? Is it really that hard to train someone to deny sim swaps until they go through 11 steps of verification like their website says? [1] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm >That, plus the fact that it's a premium service that is mostly only useful to higher net worth / higher income people, makes it seem reasonable that it would be quite expensive relative to a regular provider. I mean yeah that's the more reasonable answer. It's a luxury product and priced accordingly.
narrator 2y ago
Google Voice too. No human tech support. It's kind of weird how having no human to talk to can be a good thing in these high security matters. No social engineering attack surface.
- ssl-3 2y ago
  I've just realized that, even though I've used Google Voice as my primary phone number since before it was Google Voice -- for about 18 years now -- I have never really had a problem with it[0], and I've also never paid a dime for it[1]. It seems like a well-oiled machine. 0: Well, some places don't like using GV for 2FA (and demand a "real" cell phone number), and some other places don't think it can do short-code messages at all, but those aren't issues that anyone at GV could ever solve even if those people did exist. 1: Yeah, sure. I'm the product. Blah blah.
  - WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
    > I've used Google Voice as my primary phone number since before it was Google Voice I've still got my .10 Grand Central introductory credit.
    - gosub100 2y ago
      I use Google voice as my main number on my Pixel, but also on a burner phone to harass overly aggressive recruiters. When I set up Google voice in the burner it made me load it with credit but surprisingly all the calls and texts I've made with it are free.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    GV numbers are in some database as being VOIP. If there was some there that could do something, they could get the numbers out of that database.
    - jasomill 2y ago
      Do these databases see through number portability, or are they just verifying that the area code + prefix is assigned to a traditional telco? Because you can port a landline to Google Voice for $20, and, in my experience, random Internet "phone number lookup" sites still show it as a landline years later.
swozey 2y ago
I've mentioned this a few times and don't feel like restating it but if you're curious about my "i was locked out of every single Google service for "fraud" that I didn't commit, don't know what they were talking about, and never got a single response even after sending them my drivers license multiple times to prove my identity" story it's somewhere in my comment history. It's probably a tiny chance it happens to many people but it's something to consider. I had nobody to talk to. No store to go to. I lost cell service for a week until I migrated everything off of google. Just something to be wary of. edit: I tried to dig it up it's about a year old and .. oof yeah i'm not going through pages and pages of paginated yn comments. Moral of the story is what I said above
- evh 2y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36336256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36336256 This one seems to fit. Happy I've never had reason to write one like it.
  - swozey 2y ago
    lol That's it. Thanks, you're persistent!
    - evh 2y ago
      Lazier than you think! You almost nerdsniped me into seeing how fast I could whip up a crawler but then I checked the search and found out it can find comments and use a custom date range. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1700092800&dateRange=custom&dateStart=1649462400&page=0&prefix=true&query=swozey%20google&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1700092800&dateRange=custom&...
      - swozey 2y ago
        deletes entire account This is less traumatizing than when I found irclogs of me from 10-14 thankfully.
devman0 2y ago
My main problem with google fi is that I also use gmail heavily, and if the algorithm decides to cut me off one day for some reason, I don't want to lose access to my primary phone number and primary email address at the same time.
cactusplant7374 2y ago
What were they after?
ugh123 2y ago
Doesn't Google Fi use T-Mobile's network as an MVNO? Are they insulated from this kind of thing still?
- kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
  Same goes for Mint mobile. They are/were an MVNO now owned by T-Mobile. I have no reason to go into a store since the service just works and I never do much but confirm auto-pay is working. Looking at the site now, it's been T-mobilized with stuff like carrier-locked phones but otherwise I've seen no meaningful changes.

unstatusthequo 2y ago

Still seen swaps with Google Fi. Efani is a much better option if you actually want protection. I am a cyber lawyer and that’s our recommendation to any clients who care. I can’t recall if Efani is throttled on AT&T or Verizon as MVNO, but one isn’t. Easy to ask them.

WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
> I can’t recall if Efani is throttled on AT&T or Verizon as MVNO T-Mobile blocks my Google Voice calls. They have to run inside a VPN.
gruez 2y ago
>Efani is a much better option if you actually want protection Their website says it's $99/month. That seems a bit steep to me considering all they're providing over a regular provider that charges $29/month is that they do a bit more verification when you claim that you lost your sim. It's not even clear whether they protect against a port-out attack, which is probably worth worrying about as well.
- twright0 2y ago
  Presumably Efani accomplishes that additional protection by maintaining a human support staff they put more resources into training than the average carrier. That's expensive, especially when you consider that it's a relatively niche service (so small user base to amortize that cost over) and presumably only used by people that really care about sim swaps, likely because they are frequently targeted for sim swaps, and thus the training needs to really work. They also have no other lines of business like device sales/financing that could help cover those human operational costs. That, plus the fact that it's a premium service that is mostly only useful to higher net worth / higher income people, makes it seem reasonable that it would be quite expensive relative to a regular provider.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >Presumably Efani accomplishes that additional protection by maintaining a human support staff they put more resources into training than the average carrier. That's expensive, especially when you consider that it's a relatively niche service (so small user base to amortize that cost over) and presumably only used by people that really care about sim swaps, likely because they are frequently targeted for sim swaps, and thus the training needs to really work. According to the BLS "Computer User Support Specialists" get paid $30 on average[1]. Whatever training they give to staff to resist sim-swap attacks, I can't imagine they can't be more complicated than the certifications that "Computer User Support Specialists" have to get through, so I think it's reasonable to model their support costs at $30/hr per person. With the premium they're charging over a budget MVNO they can afford two support people per customer. How many fraudulent sim swap attacks could the worst client possibly attract? Is it really that hard to train someone to deny sim swaps until they go through 11 steps of verification like their website says? [1] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm >That, plus the fact that it's a premium service that is mostly only useful to higher net worth / higher income people, makes it seem reasonable that it would be quite expensive relative to a regular provider. I mean yeah that's the more reasonable answer. It's a luxury product and priced accordingly.

narrator 2y ago

Google Voice too. No human tech support. It's kind of weird how having no human to talk to can be a good thing in these high security matters. No social engineering attack surface.

ssl-3 2y ago
I've just realized that, even though I've used Google Voice as my primary phone number since before it was Google Voice -- for about 18 years now -- I have never really had a problem with it[0], and I've also never paid a dime for it[1]. It seems like a well-oiled machine. 0: Well, some places don't like using GV for 2FA (and demand a "real" cell phone number), and some other places don't think it can do short-code messages at all, but those aren't issues that anyone at GV could ever solve even if those people did exist. 1: Yeah, sure. I'm the product. Blah blah.
- WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
  > I've used Google Voice as my primary phone number since before it was Google Voice I've still got my .10 Grand Central introductory credit.
  - gosub100 2y ago
    I use Google voice as my main number on my Pixel, but also on a burner phone to harass overly aggressive recruiters. When I set up Google voice in the burner it made me load it with credit but surprisingly all the calls and texts I've made with it are free.
- fragmede 2y ago
  GV numbers are in some database as being VOIP. If there was some there that could do something, they could get the numbers out of that database.
  - jasomill 2y ago
    Do these databases see through number portability, or are they just verifying that the area code + prefix is assigned to a traditional telco? Because you can port a landline to Google Voice for $20, and, in my experience, random Internet "phone number lookup" sites still show it as a landline years later.

swozey 2y ago

I've mentioned this a few times and don't feel like restating it but if you're curious about my "i was locked out of every single Google service for "fraud" that I didn't commit, don't know what they were talking about, and never got a single response even after sending them my drivers license multiple times to prove my identity" story it's somewhere in my comment history. It's probably a tiny chance it happens to many people but it's something to consider. I had nobody to talk to. No store to go to. I lost cell service for a week until I migrated everything off of google. Just something to be wary of. edit: I tried to dig it up it's about a year old and .. oof yeah i'm not going through pages and pages of paginated yn comments. Moral of the story is what I said above

evh 2y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36336256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36336256 This one seems to fit. Happy I've never had reason to write one like it.
- swozey 2y ago
  lol That's it. Thanks, you're persistent!
  - evh 2y ago
    Lazier than you think! You almost nerdsniped me into seeing how fast I could whip up a crawler but then I checked the search and found out it can find comments and use a custom date range. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1700092800&dateRange=custom&dateStart=1649462400&page=0&prefix=true&query=swozey%20google&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1700092800&dateRange=custom&...
    - swozey 2y ago
      deletes entire account This is less traumatizing than when I found irclogs of me from 10-14 thankfully.

devman0 2y ago

My main problem with google fi is that I also use gmail heavily, and if the algorithm decides to cut me off one day for some reason, I don't want to lose access to my primary phone number and primary email address at the same time.

cactusplant7374 2y ago

What were they after?

ugh123 2y ago

Doesn't Google Fi use T-Mobile's network as an MVNO? Are they insulated from this kind of thing still?

kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
Same goes for Mint mobile. They are/were an MVNO now owned by T-Mobile. I have no reason to go into a store since the service just works and I never do much but confirm auto-pay is working. Looking at the site now, it's been T-mobilized with stuff like carrier-locked phones but otherwise I've seen no meaningful changes.