7 ms·

The Making of Side 7: Gundam Evolution private server project

110 points by Gamemaster1379 2y ago

squigz 2y ago
"Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- gnabgib 2y ago
  Article title & h1: The Making of Side 7 | GUNDAM EVOLUTION Private Server Project (it looks like op is Matthew Stanley)
- dang 2y ago
  Thanks! We've changed the title now. (Submitted title was "If you put server code in your live-service game client, expect private servers")
Danieru 2y ago
Unreal's highlevel of packaing and managing assets for years meant modding was locked off. Unity games often shipped on PC with loose files and hacking C# broke after each update but at least was an option. Over time the modding community has leverage this high level by building unreal native tools. The net result has been the same sort of cross tool use we saw with Gamebryo. Back with Gamebryo the Civilization modding shared tools with sid meier's railroads and even early skyrim and fallout modding. Now the Unreal tools mean mods can be done in blueprint and should not break after every update like C# based mods. Likewise the common pak format used by unreal games (common because consoles prefer the pak for faster loading), means mods can replace files without overwriting files. Aka, mod conflicts become a reference overwrite issue and not a file overwrite issue. As a developer of an unreal based game its pretty nice to know modding is no longer locked out. You still need/should provide the community with a modkit, but even those the community can generate on their own if they care.
neilv 2y ago
Companies should keep their servers running. One of the reasons: if you want people to buy your next thing. (I was fairly highly ranked online in one of the Ace Combat fighter pilot franchise games, and had built a stable of planes in another one. But when they shut down the servers for the previous installment, after introducing a new one, I found I couldn't get interested in investing in the new one, if it was only going to get ripped out from under me like the previous.)
- dingnuts 2y ago
  this is fair but I would also really love to see the problem solved at the regulatory level for companies that go out of business, too all abandonware -- including server code -- should enter the public domain when certain criteria are met hell, the whole practice of rights holders choosing to stop distributing media that could be distributed by fans at very low cost -- like the Disney vault or the recent fiasco with Coyote vs ACME -- is an affront to art preservation and to art and to creatives and society in general and should be stopped. free the media! if you won't sell it, you should have to let others distribute it for you quibble about details but in general stuff like Ubisoft deleting The Crew should be illegal
  - golergka 2y ago
    Server code often includes proprietary third party software that cannot be legally open sourced, or depends on licences. Do you think game fans will pay Oracle prices?
    - exe34 2y ago
      The law can open source any code. It means that in the future the companies using such code might decide to use code they own or the people selling them that code might charge more upfront. But the market will adjust.
      - golergka 2y ago
        One way of adjusting is never legally releasing the game in a country with such laws.
gryn 2y ago
Even if you don't if your game is popular enough they will reverse engineer the server-client communication protocol. The only place where I see that not happening is the future where game are 100% streamed and your computers is just a screen + controller (stadia 2.0). Then they'll have to settle for knock off clones of your game.
- michaelsalim 2y ago
  By the time games are 100% streamed, maybe AI will be good enough to recreate games just by screen recording. Who knows.
  - rpigab 2y ago
    In theory, if AI was really crazy good, which I don't think will happen anytime soon or at all, it would be able to let you play the game, without any code being written other than the AI. Describe your game, connect inputs, and the model will make up some video and audio output through generative diffusion models. The challenge might be that it's way easier to do if you can let the AI have time to process each request, as opposed to having to react to many inputs per second. It might require the entire power output of a medium-sized country to play a game, though.
  - planede 2y ago
    Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39355944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39355944
  - account42 2y ago
    Game streaming is not a technology problem, it's a physics problem. You'd need to have servers close to any potential playes.
- thrdbndndn 2y ago
  I've heard of this, but always wondering: how can these reverse-engineering based private servers be accurate? Like, reverse engineering the communication protocol is easy, or at least pretty feasible. But how do you acquire server-side data? Like raw probability tables for certain event? Not to mention the game logic itself. Some of them obviously can be fetched or guessed by using the live server, but it can't be comprehensive. I've (superficially) involved in certain private servers like WoW 15 years ago, but AFAIK they just used leaked server-side software (usually from a foreign agency) than reverse engineering.
Sakos 2y ago
> Fortuitously, the creators of "GUNDAM EVOLUTION" provided a timely notice about the game's end of service (EOS), affording me ample opportunity to start capturing game data packets This is always one of the biggest issues with trying to make a private server. Ideally, we should be proactively capturing game data packets and archiving them for every game that has an online component, to ensure that somebody in the future will have that available if they're interested in developing a private server for whatever game.
- ineedaj0b 2y ago
  I helped push someone to make this happen. Didn’t have enough free time myself. Glad to see it happen. Projects like these are great stepping stones into learning how to code for younger kids and adults :)
- pacifika 2y ago
  Preserving packets. That would be an interesting internet archive software project
misiek08 2y ago
The game itself looks good. Playing bugger BF 2042 its sad to see such polished (comparing to EA crap) product goes so fast into EOL :( Like others said - do you kill your product and probably company? Open source it :)
TazeTSchnitzel 2y ago
I think it's common for multiplayer game engines to implement single-player by running a local server on loopback (or via an equivalent internal mechanism). At the very least, I believe the Source Engine and Minecraft do this. Perhaps Unreal Engine does this also, and if so, that might be why the client has server functionality.
- Gamemaster1379 2y ago
  For live service games, self-hosting is increasingly uncommon. During the Source era of Team Fortress 2, Half-Life Deathmatch, etc, self-hosting was certainly a thing. But in the modern era, games like Overwatch 2 have no means to be a server or listen server. Even "custom games" where you can make your own game mode and do fun, arcadey-style things connect to a dedicated server. For things that are "single player", (e.g. Tutorials/Practice), I agree with you that it's to be expected that some sort of mock-loopback is likely stood up. But what was unusual in this situation is the _entirety_ of the code is there, to the point it even would bind to a UDP port and handle full bi-directional UDP communication. I would expect that for something like this, they'd include a trimmed down version, and not ship the _entire_ thing.
- jamesfinlayson 2y ago
  Probably many games do, but there is often an external master server that the local server fetches data from e.g. Team Fortress 2's local server calls out to a master server that tracks which items you have, Counter-strike: Global Offensive calls out to a separate master server that tracks your level and stats etc.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

"Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

gnabgib 2y ago
Article title & h1: The Making of Side 7 | GUNDAM EVOLUTION Private Server Project (it looks like op is Matthew Stanley)
dang 2y ago
Thanks! We've changed the title now. (Submitted title was "If you put server code in your live-service game client, expect private servers")

Danieru 2y ago

Unreal's highlevel of packaing and managing assets for years meant modding was locked off. Unity games often shipped on PC with loose files and hacking C# broke after each update but at least was an option. Over time the modding community has leverage this high level by building unreal native tools. The net result has been the same sort of cross tool use we saw with Gamebryo. Back with Gamebryo the Civilization modding shared tools with sid meier's railroads and even early skyrim and fallout modding. Now the Unreal tools mean mods can be done in blueprint and should not break after every update like C# based mods. Likewise the common pak format used by unreal games (common because consoles prefer the pak for faster loading), means mods can replace files without overwriting files. Aka, mod conflicts become a reference overwrite issue and not a file overwrite issue. As a developer of an unreal based game its pretty nice to know modding is no longer locked out. You still need/should provide the community with a modkit, but even those the community can generate on their own if they care.

neilv 2y ago

Companies should keep their servers running. One of the reasons: if you want people to buy your next thing. (I was fairly highly ranked online in one of the Ace Combat fighter pilot franchise games, and had built a stable of planes in another one. But when they shut down the servers for the previous installment, after introducing a new one, I found I couldn't get interested in investing in the new one, if it was only going to get ripped out from under me like the previous.)

dingnuts 2y ago
this is fair but I would also really love to see the problem solved at the regulatory level for companies that go out of business, too all abandonware -- including server code -- should enter the public domain when certain criteria are met hell, the whole practice of rights holders choosing to stop distributing media that could be distributed by fans at very low cost -- like the Disney vault or the recent fiasco with Coyote vs ACME -- is an affront to art preservation and to art and to creatives and society in general and should be stopped. free the media! if you won't sell it, you should have to let others distribute it for you quibble about details but in general stuff like Ubisoft deleting The Crew should be illegal
- golergka 2y ago
  Server code often includes proprietary third party software that cannot be legally open sourced, or depends on licences. Do you think game fans will pay Oracle prices?
  - exe34 2y ago
    The law can open source any code. It means that in the future the companies using such code might decide to use code they own or the people selling them that code might charge more upfront. But the market will adjust.
    - golergka 2y ago
      One way of adjusting is never legally releasing the game in a country with such laws.

gryn 2y ago

Even if you don't if your game is popular enough they will reverse engineer the server-client communication protocol. The only place where I see that not happening is the future where game are 100% streamed and your computers is just a screen + controller (stadia 2.0). Then they'll have to settle for knock off clones of your game.

michaelsalim 2y ago
By the time games are 100% streamed, maybe AI will be good enough to recreate games just by screen recording. Who knows.
- rpigab 2y ago
  In theory, if AI was really crazy good, which I don't think will happen anytime soon or at all, it would be able to let you play the game, without any code being written other than the AI. Describe your game, connect inputs, and the model will make up some video and audio output through generative diffusion models. The challenge might be that it's way easier to do if you can let the AI have time to process each request, as opposed to having to react to many inputs per second. It might require the entire power output of a medium-sized country to play a game, though.
- planede 2y ago
  Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39355944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39355944
- account42 2y ago
  Game streaming is not a technology problem, it's a physics problem. You'd need to have servers close to any potential playes.
thrdbndndn 2y ago
I've heard of this, but always wondering: how can these reverse-engineering based private servers be accurate? Like, reverse engineering the communication protocol is easy, or at least pretty feasible. But how do you acquire server-side data? Like raw probability tables for certain event? Not to mention the game logic itself. Some of them obviously can be fetched or guessed by using the live server, but it can't be comprehensive. I've (superficially) involved in certain private servers like WoW 15 years ago, but AFAIK they just used leaked server-side software (usually from a foreign agency) than reverse engineering.

Sakos 2y ago

> Fortuitously, the creators of "GUNDAM EVOLUTION" provided a timely notice about the game's end of service (EOS), affording me ample opportunity to start capturing game data packets This is always one of the biggest issues with trying to make a private server. Ideally, we should be proactively capturing game data packets and archiving them for every game that has an online component, to ensure that somebody in the future will have that available if they're interested in developing a private server for whatever game.

ineedaj0b 2y ago
I helped push someone to make this happen. Didn’t have enough free time myself. Glad to see it happen. Projects like these are great stepping stones into learning how to code for younger kids and adults :)
pacifika 2y ago
Preserving packets. That would be an interesting internet archive software project

misiek08 2y ago

The game itself looks good. Playing bugger BF 2042 its sad to see such polished (comparing to EA crap) product goes so fast into EOL :( Like others said - do you kill your product and probably company? Open source it :)

TazeTSchnitzel 2y ago

I think it's common for multiplayer game engines to implement single-player by running a local server on loopback (or via an equivalent internal mechanism). At the very least, I believe the Source Engine and Minecraft do this. Perhaps Unreal Engine does this also, and if so, that might be why the client has server functionality.

Gamemaster1379 2y ago
For live service games, self-hosting is increasingly uncommon. During the Source era of Team Fortress 2, Half-Life Deathmatch, etc, self-hosting was certainly a thing. But in the modern era, games like Overwatch 2 have no means to be a server or listen server. Even "custom games" where you can make your own game mode and do fun, arcadey-style things connect to a dedicated server. For things that are "single player", (e.g. Tutorials/Practice), I agree with you that it's to be expected that some sort of mock-loopback is likely stood up. But what was unusual in this situation is the _entirety_ of the code is there, to the point it even would bind to a UDP port and handle full bi-directional UDP communication. I would expect that for something like this, they'd include a trimmed down version, and not ship the _entire_ thing.
jamesfinlayson 2y ago
Probably many games do, but there is often an external master server that the local server fetches data from e.g. Team Fortress 2's local server calls out to a master server that tracks which items you have, Counter-strike: Global Offensive calls out to a separate master server that tracks your level and stats etc.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]