11 ms·

Does your opinion change if, in the course of wasting their time, he puts them at higher risk of beatings or worse?

by bumby 3y ago

1123581321 3y ago
In the long run we want all these operations to fail. It’s sad that people will be hurt as these criminal bosses see their groups stop being able to steal, but it’s better than more people being recruited into them. That’s in addition to the good of preventing thefts.
- caminante 3y ago
  I don't have the data, but I suspect a few thieves caught isn't a deterrent to the majority of scammers. These videos usually end with "[x] has been reported to authorities" with a hopeless probability of law enforcement taking action.
  - 1123581321 3y ago
    The guy featured in this article is just part of the marketing arm of a bigger public awareness and enforcement trend that is (slowly) reducing demand, if you will, and making it easier to either find them or cut them off from communication services in the target country.
    - caminante 3y ago
      "Reducing demand" isn't supported by the article, anywhere. The article's tagline is "Scams are on the rise -- and so are..." I know it's against HN etiquette to presuppose openly, but you didn't read the article. Did you?
      - 1123581321 3y ago
        We're talking about something a bit broader than the article now. The article is just a fun personal interest story that ties into what I think is a more serious problem. Part of the reason NPR promotes Kitboga is to help its audience be more likely to ignore these calls. Awareness works in hand with coordinated Interpol investigations, FCC sanctions of networks routing excessive robocalls, and so on. The article using catchy just-so writing doesn't mean it's the end of the bigger story.
        caminante 3y ago
        > We're talking about something a bit broader than the article now. I'm not. If you have support to show these influencers are effective at "reducing demand" (which would go against the article's claims), then please share.
        1123581321 3y ago
        Here's a publication from the DoJ that talks about how public awareness reduces crime. https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/178926.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/178926.pdf I don't know where you got the idea that the NPR article contradicts this as an effective public policy/public safety approach, but I won't ask if you read it.
        caminante 3y ago
        I appreciate the effort and support public awareness. That said, and FWIW, the content of your documentation is NOT from the DOJ, but from a non-profit in coordination with the DOJ [from 2000 and targeting the National Youth Network] The DOJ even goes on to disclaim ownership of the contents! > Points of view or opinions expressed in this document are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent the official position or policies of the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, BJA, or the U.S. Department of Justice.
        1123581321 3y ago
        Still, I will stand by the contents. I'm surprised to have gotten so much pushback about the concept of public awareness being related to safety and lower crime, but it's been good to think about it some more. Stay safe.
- bumby 3y ago
  Maybe. But this is not unlike the libertarian ideal of letting the economy crash in 2008. It can create a tremendous amount of short-to-medium term suffering based on the faith that the long term outcome will be better. I’m of the mind there are probably better solutions that mitigate a lot of that downside.
tombert 3y ago
I mean, that's really sad, and of course I don't want people to get beaten, but is the only way to stop that to give into extortion and have grandma be ripped for for $10,000 in the form of Google Play cards? It's deeply unfortunate that people have to go through that, but fundamentally I don't think we should be capitulating to extortionists. If we do that, we're effectively creating a market for threatening and hurting people.
- bumby 3y ago
  This is displaying dichotomous thinking. I don’t think the only choices are a) waste their time with vigilante justice and let them be beaten/raped/killed and b) allow the extortion and scamming to continue by capitulating.
  - igetspam 3y ago
    What's your proposed third choice?
    - bumby 3y ago
      I've already stated it elsewhere in this thread, but there are diplomatic, regulatory, and educational avenues that would probably be more impactful than a few dudes taking it upon themselves. In my mind, it's not unlike the people who half-block a traffic lane when there's a merge upcoming. In their mind, I'm sure they think they're doing the Lord's work, and it scratches their itch for a sense of justice in an unjust world. In reality, it slows everyone down and makes the system worse. Giving into our human biases for seeking justice can often lead to worse outcomes.
  - chucksta 3y ago
    It's a dichotomous question
    - bumby 3y ago
      Sorry, but it really isn't. "How do I handle a scam phone call?" has a number of options, regardless if you're viewing it as an individual or a society.

Does your opinion change if, in the course of wasting their time, he puts them at higher risk of beatings or worse?

by bumby 3y ago

Does your opinion change if, in the course of wasting their time, he puts them at higher risk of beatings or worse?

In the long run we want all these operations to fail. It’s sad that people will be hurt as these criminal bosses see their groups stop being able to steal, but it’s better than more people being recruited into them. That’s in addition to the good of preventing thefts.

caminante 3y ago
I don't have the data, but I suspect a few thieves caught isn't a deterrent to the majority of scammers. These videos usually end with "[x] has been reported to authorities" with a hopeless probability of law enforcement taking action.
- 1123581321 3y ago
  The guy featured in this article is just part of the marketing arm of a bigger public awareness and enforcement trend that is (slowly) reducing demand, if you will, and making it easier to either find them or cut them off from communication services in the target country.
  - caminante 3y ago
    "Reducing demand" isn't supported by the article, anywhere. The article's tagline is "Scams are on the rise -- and so are..." I know it's against HN etiquette to presuppose openly, but you didn't read the article. Did you?
    - 1123581321 3y ago
      We're talking about something a bit broader than the article now. The article is just a fun personal interest story that ties into what I think is a more serious problem. Part of the reason NPR promotes Kitboga is to help its audience be more likely to ignore these calls. Awareness works in hand with coordinated Interpol investigations, FCC sanctions of networks routing excessive robocalls, and so on. The article using catchy just-so writing doesn't mean it's the end of the bigger story.
      - caminante 3y ago
        > We're talking about something a bit broader than the article now. I'm not. If you have support to show these influencers are effective at "reducing demand" (which would go against the article's claims), then please share.
        1123581321 3y ago
        Here's a publication from the DoJ that talks about how public awareness reduces crime. https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/178926.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/178926.pdf I don't know where you got the idea that the NPR article contradicts this as an effective public policy/public safety approach, but I won't ask if you read it.
        caminante 3y ago
        I appreciate the effort and support public awareness. That said, and FWIW, the content of your documentation is NOT from the DOJ, but from a non-profit in coordination with the DOJ [from 2000 and targeting the National Youth Network] The DOJ even goes on to disclaim ownership of the contents! > Points of view or opinions expressed in this document are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent the official position or policies of the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, BJA, or the U.S. Department of Justice.
        1123581321 3y ago
        Still, I will stand by the contents. I'm surprised to have gotten so much pushback about the concept of public awareness being related to safety and lower crime, but it's been good to think about it some more. Stay safe.
bumby 3y ago
Maybe. But this is not unlike the libertarian ideal of letting the economy crash in 2008. It can create a tremendous amount of short-to-medium term suffering based on the faith that the long term outcome will be better. I’m of the mind there are probably better solutions that mitigate a lot of that downside.

tombert 3y ago

I mean, that's really sad, and of course I don't want people to get beaten, but is the only way to stop that to give into extortion and have grandma be ripped for for $10,000 in the form of Google Play cards? It's deeply unfortunate that people have to go through that, but fundamentally I don't think we should be capitulating to extortionists. If we do that, we're effectively creating a market for threatening and hurting people.

bumby 3y ago
This is displaying dichotomous thinking. I don’t think the only choices are a) waste their time with vigilante justice and let them be beaten/raped/killed and b) allow the extortion and scamming to continue by capitulating.
- igetspam 3y ago
  What's your proposed third choice?
  - bumby 3y ago
    I've already stated it elsewhere in this thread, but there are diplomatic, regulatory, and educational avenues that would probably be more impactful than a few dudes taking it upon themselves. In my mind, it's not unlike the people who half-block a traffic lane when there's a merge upcoming. In their mind, I'm sure they think they're doing the Lord's work, and it scratches their itch for a sense of justice in an unjust world. In reality, it slows everyone down and makes the system worse. Giving into our human biases for seeking justice can often lead to worse outcomes.
- chucksta 3y ago
  It's a dichotomous question
  - bumby 3y ago
    Sorry, but it really isn't. "How do I handle a scam phone call?" has a number of options, regardless if you're viewing it as an individual or a society.