4 ms·

Given the number of possible things wrong with a human that leads to bad behavior, it seems like an extreme claim to suggest that desire to make a change is a n

Given the number of possible things wrong with a human that leads to bad behavior, it seems like an extreme claim to suggest that desire to make a change is a necessary component in any successful therapy. Part of therapy can be building that desire. For example, therapy for issues stemming from learned helplessness are a counter example, as learned helplessness implies lacking a desire to make a change as they have already been conditioned to seeing it as impossible. The therapy involves building up that desire by having minor successes that end up breaking down the mental block which formed.

lelanthran 3y ago
None of what you said is quantitative and/or objective data.
- jacobgkau 3y ago
  A "sincere desire to make change" isn't quantifiable in the first place.
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    > A "sincere desire to make change" isn't quantifiable in the first place. Well, that's my entire point: why use it as a metric or target? How do you tell if you achieved the objective when the target metric is unmeasurable? When the goal is (in GP's words) "building that desire to make a change", you can never tell anything about progress towards your goal: when you've achieved the goal, when you've not achieved that goal, when you're making progress, when you're making it worse - those things are all subjective. All we can do when treating sociopaths is to release them into the world again and judge their actions, not their self-reported feelings.
    - jacobgkau 3y ago
      > When the goal is (in GP's words) "building that desire to make a change", you can never tell anything about progress towards your goal: > All we can do when treating sociopaths is to release them into the world again and judge their actions, not their self-reported feelings. What's the purpose here, to treat the condition of being a sociopath, or just to enforce enough structure on them that they don't cause other people harm? My problem with what you said is that the entire idea of "sociopathy" is that a person lacks what the diagnoser considers to be "emotion" and is simply "pretending" to be a "normal" human by copying how they see other people behaving. That diagnosis isn't quantifiable in the first place; it's the diagnoser deciding they know what's happening in a patient's head by (guess what?) observing their words and actions. Farther up-thread, people were arguing sociopaths should go to prison and not receive therapy (particularly if they say they don't want therapy, but more generally if they've committed a crime). You're now taking that farther by saying even if they express a desire to make change, that shouldn't be taken into account when determining any treatment/punishment, because that's only an observation of words coming out of their mouth-- but that's the same route they were diagnosed via in the first place, so I find that hypocritical. If you're just saying criminals should be punished without regard for their mental health/conditions simply because their victims were victimized regardless, that's a valid utilitarian view. But realize (it at least sounds like) you're essentially arguing that therapy for mental conditions is generally impossible/pointless.

lelanthran 3y ago

None of what you said is quantitative and/or objective data.

jacobgkau 3y ago
A "sincere desire to make change" isn't quantifiable in the first place.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > A "sincere desire to make change" isn't quantifiable in the first place. Well, that's my entire point: why use it as a metric or target? How do you tell if you achieved the objective when the target metric is unmeasurable? When the goal is (in GP's words) "building that desire to make a change", you can never tell anything about progress towards your goal: when you've achieved the goal, when you've not achieved that goal, when you're making progress, when you're making it worse - those things are all subjective. All we can do when treating sociopaths is to release them into the world again and judge their actions, not their self-reported feelings.
  - jacobgkau 3y ago
    > When the goal is (in GP's words) "building that desire to make a change", you can never tell anything about progress towards your goal: > All we can do when treating sociopaths is to release them into the world again and judge their actions, not their self-reported feelings. What's the purpose here, to treat the condition of being a sociopath, or just to enforce enough structure on them that they don't cause other people harm? My problem with what you said is that the entire idea of "sociopathy" is that a person lacks what the diagnoser considers to be "emotion" and is simply "pretending" to be a "normal" human by copying how they see other people behaving. That diagnosis isn't quantifiable in the first place; it's the diagnoser deciding they know what's happening in a patient's head by (guess what?) observing their words and actions. Farther up-thread, people were arguing sociopaths should go to prison and not receive therapy (particularly if they say they don't want therapy, but more generally if they've committed a crime). You're now taking that farther by saying even if they express a desire to make change, that shouldn't be taken into account when determining any treatment/punishment, because that's only an observation of words coming out of their mouth-- but that's the same route they were diagnosed via in the first place, so I find that hypocritical. If you're just saying criminals should be punished without regard for their mental health/conditions simply because their victims were victimized regardless, that's a valid utilitarian view. But realize (it at least sounds like) you're essentially arguing that therapy for mental conditions is generally impossible/pointless.