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I'm definitely not comparing people working on a SaaS app to emergency docs and nurses, but this dynamic happens a lot in startups and it's something to watch a

I'm definitely not comparing people working on a SaaS app to emergency docs and nurses, but this dynamic happens a lot in startups and it's something to watch as a manager. People go to the most effective people with their problems and high-stakes projects. The reward for good work is more work.

listenallyall 3y ago
Happens in companies of every size and industry. Colleagues quickly figure out who the competent person is on some obscure task and repeatedly direct requests specifically to that person. And after weeks/months of overwork or overdelivering, when they finally say no to something, people get offended, call the person rude or a jerk, it sometimes even leads to their dismissal.
- BizarroLand 3y ago
  On a small team I was doing ~65% of the total number of tickets and not just the easy ones. Then one of the other people on the team, one of the lowest performers, got promoted over me and I lost it. Apparently the CIO wasn't looking at the metrics. He made sure I got a raise and got slotted in for the next available promotion, which was only a few months away. Then the company that was contracting us early termed their contract, and they only asked me to stay to build a new team, based on the CIO's recommendation. Metrics are a pain but they can also be a life saver.
deleted 3y ago
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htrp 3y ago
Shouldn't you as the manager be directing traffic here. Product shouldn't be going directly to engineers to try and campaign / dump workload on people?
- delecti 3y ago
  This is occasionally a problem that the specific engineer enables. It's normal for an engineer to work directly with product, and if they develop a rapport they'll start side-stepping management with additional requests. Over-eager engineers will then sometimes train PMs that they're a good place to make those requests, even if they're big enough that they should be prioritized in the normal flow.
onthecanposting 3y ago
Different people have different motive forces in their lives. Some people hate work and would be upset by losing their leisure time. Some people love the glory of challenging or prestigious projects and would welcome that situation. A good manager knows the difference.
- abeppu 3y ago
  ... but maybe healthy organizations should figure out how to let people doing challenging or prestigious projects have work-life balance and "leisure time" (or dependent care responsibilities, etc), and be appropriately compensated? It doesn't have to be one or the other. It's also possible to enjoy working for a while at an unsustainable pace, but a good manager should often tamp back on this b/c: (a) an IC that burns themselves out and has a long recovery period of lower engagement may be less effective than an IC with sustained productivity and (b) the swing between high and low productivity can cause issues for the team overall, esp if peers at first try to compete on pace and then have to shift to share the weight after someone burns out
commandlinefan 3y ago
and if they thought you _would_ be able to pull it off in a couple of days, but it's more complicated than they thought and takes a couple of weeks, they'll accuse you of lying and pretending it was harder than it was.
ore0s 3y ago
What's your advice to someone who lives this dynamic? I've experienced it, and felt it slowed down my career trajectory. I want to make a change in my story and will try my best to listen.
- GoToRO 3y ago
  I don't know <- this is the advice
  - ore0s 3y ago
    Thanks! I'm going to try this right now.
- chambers 3y ago
  I've lived this dynamic as a manager. I've come to see it as a problem of "ownership" which obscures a larger problem of role confusion. When competent people try to be responsible & knowledgeable with work but lack control for that work to be done well. Think "engineers are ready to launch a new feature but the PM struggles with written English and can't draft an email." What do you do as an engineer? There's a few usually bad options like drafting the email yourself, teaching the PM english, etc. Whatever is done, the best engineers I've seen know their job and their role, and can tell others. They balance their sense of responsibility with the reality of what they control. They price work outside of their job role, to be paid in political capital, e.g. a promotion. If the professional does not define their role, other people will do it for them. If the professional avoids pricing, they're saying their time is free. That person get marked as a patsy or a cog. Someone who messes can be dumped on and who, thanks to corporate Pavlovian conditioning, gets work done without upsetting the status quo. The more messy the work is, the less control you have, the more time you personally need to sacrifice. It's a recipe for burn out, role confusion, and other people's ideals becoming your performance standards.
  - ore0s 3y ago
    This speaks a lot to me. If an integration was new, or I'd never managed resources before, or worked cross-org in any way, I'd just pick it up. I'd even do the PM's job of interviewing the customers, validating if we were targeting real painpoints, and attempting to drive product direction. Over a few years I worked on several projects, which all became the company's product suite. They all gained adoption, became very valuable and were sold to several customers, but they were not reliable. Even less so after they moved me off. But they were solving real problems, and customers were still happy, and so the company still kept them alive with bigger teams. The company attained unicorn status, but I never really got ownership of any 1 project or product. I'd get increasing requests for help across the growing product suite, was able to help effectively, and simultaneously took on new feature development work. In the latter part of my time there, I found out I may have been in the bottom quartile of pay for the team I was in, while being perceived as the top performer by coworkers. I was in a slow 'burn out' but never fully checked out. Maybe because I think I rarely put in over 50 hours a week. Never touched comms during weekends.
thr0way120 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

listenallyall 3y ago

Happens in companies of every size and industry. Colleagues quickly figure out who the competent person is on some obscure task and repeatedly direct requests specifically to that person. And after weeks/months of overwork or overdelivering, when they finally say no to something, people get offended, call the person rude or a jerk, it sometimes even leads to their dismissal.

BizarroLand 3y ago
On a small team I was doing ~65% of the total number of tickets and not just the easy ones. Then one of the other people on the team, one of the lowest performers, got promoted over me and I lost it. Apparently the CIO wasn't looking at the metrics. He made sure I got a raise and got slotted in for the next available promotion, which was only a few months away. Then the company that was contracting us early termed their contract, and they only asked me to stay to build a new team, based on the CIO's recommendation. Metrics are a pain but they can also be a life saver.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

htrp 3y ago

Shouldn't you as the manager be directing traffic here. Product shouldn't be going directly to engineers to try and campaign / dump workload on people?

delecti 3y ago
This is occasionally a problem that the specific engineer enables. It's normal for an engineer to work directly with product, and if they develop a rapport they'll start side-stepping management with additional requests. Over-eager engineers will then sometimes train PMs that they're a good place to make those requests, even if they're big enough that they should be prioritized in the normal flow.

onthecanposting 3y ago

Different people have different motive forces in their lives. Some people hate work and would be upset by losing their leisure time. Some people love the glory of challenging or prestigious projects and would welcome that situation. A good manager knows the difference.

abeppu 3y ago
... but maybe healthy organizations should figure out how to let people doing challenging or prestigious projects have work-life balance and "leisure time" (or dependent care responsibilities, etc), and be appropriately compensated? It doesn't have to be one or the other. It's also possible to enjoy working for a while at an unsustainable pace, but a good manager should often tamp back on this b/c: (a) an IC that burns themselves out and has a long recovery period of lower engagement may be less effective than an IC with sustained productivity and (b) the swing between high and low productivity can cause issues for the team overall, esp if peers at first try to compete on pace and then have to shift to share the weight after someone burns out

commandlinefan 3y ago

and if they thought you _would_ be able to pull it off in a couple of days, but it's more complicated than they thought and takes a couple of weeks, they'll accuse you of lying and pretending it was harder than it was.

ore0s 3y ago

What's your advice to someone who lives this dynamic? I've experienced it, and felt it slowed down my career trajectory. I want to make a change in my story and will try my best to listen.

GoToRO 3y ago
I don't know <- this is the advice
- ore0s 3y ago
  Thanks! I'm going to try this right now.
chambers 3y ago
I've lived this dynamic as a manager. I've come to see it as a problem of "ownership" which obscures a larger problem of role confusion. When competent people try to be responsible & knowledgeable with work but lack control for that work to be done well. Think "engineers are ready to launch a new feature but the PM struggles with written English and can't draft an email." What do you do as an engineer? There's a few usually bad options like drafting the email yourself, teaching the PM english, etc. Whatever is done, the best engineers I've seen know their job and their role, and can tell others. They balance their sense of responsibility with the reality of what they control. They price work outside of their job role, to be paid in political capital, e.g. a promotion. If the professional does not define their role, other people will do it for them. If the professional avoids pricing, they're saying their time is free. That person get marked as a patsy or a cog. Someone who messes can be dumped on and who, thanks to corporate Pavlovian conditioning, gets work done without upsetting the status quo. The more messy the work is, the less control you have, the more time you personally need to sacrifice. It's a recipe for burn out, role confusion, and other people's ideals becoming your performance standards.
- ore0s 3y ago
  This speaks a lot to me. If an integration was new, or I'd never managed resources before, or worked cross-org in any way, I'd just pick it up. I'd even do the PM's job of interviewing the customers, validating if we were targeting real painpoints, and attempting to drive product direction. Over a few years I worked on several projects, which all became the company's product suite. They all gained adoption, became very valuable and were sold to several customers, but they were not reliable. Even less so after they moved me off. But they were solving real problems, and customers were still happy, and so the company still kept them alive with bigger teams. The company attained unicorn status, but I never really got ownership of any 1 project or product. I'd get increasing requests for help across the growing product suite, was able to help effectively, and simultaneously took on new feature development work. In the latter part of my time there, I found out I may have been in the bottom quartile of pay for the team I was in, while being perceived as the top performer by coworkers. I was in a slow 'burn out' but never fully checked out. Maybe because I think I rarely put in over 50 hours a week. Never touched comms during weekends.

thr0way120 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]