11 ms·

20 years ago Gmail revolutionized email. It's time for a new revolution

34 points by dotcoma 2y ago

claytonjy 2y ago
This is the first I've heard of Tuta. How does it compare to the more popular nerd-focused Gmail alternatives like fastmail, proton, or hey?
- nyolfen 2y ago
  similar to protonmail, european, came out of the post-snowden shift towards e2e services
- gaganyaan 2y ago
  I like their mission. I used them for a while and the service was great, but I got annoyed at not being able to use any other client than theirs. I wanted to use Thunderbird, but they don't support IMAP for encryption reasons. I switched to Fastmail and it's been nice, I like that they're fixing the shortcomings of email by pushing for new standards like jmap. I'd probably have stuck with Tuta if they had a plan for a new standard that let them be privacy oriented and also let me use Thunderbird.
  - nicce 2y ago
    Yep, it is a bit too big walled garden at the moment. Since it is E2EE almost completely, it is harder to make alternative clients. But still they should offer some specification.
- AwaAwa 2y ago
  They aren't bad at all but be warned that you shouldn't use them for throwaway addresses that are lightly used. They will delete your account if there hasn't been activity for 6 months. Sounds like a lot of time, but surprising how quickly that time runs out. Something to be aware of up front.
daft_pink 2y ago
My problem having used proton is that the encrypted email services simply don’t integrate well with other services or email clients.
- carimura 2y ago
  this is in fact annoying with proton cal on a mac. i can only subscribe to it with mac cal (to see alongside my other calendars).
Beijinger 2y ago
Ungoogle yourself. Don't rely on google. I had transferred a quite valuable DID number to my Project Fi phone. Due to unfortunate circumstances I was not able to pay for a while. I lost: 1. The valuable number 2. Access to my Gmail Account. I know my PW but gmail won't let me log into gmail without confirming with the number that I lost. Hence, my gmail account is gone 3. Paid apps. I lost apps I paid for and that were linked to my phone or email, e.g. threma, insync etc. Had a lawyer write to google. No answer. Don't rely on google for anything important. I have a new gmail for my Android. I don't even know it out of my head since I don't use it. Why would I? At least Tuta has support. Somebody you can contact. But I prefer to control the domain too. Germany/US Based? I would prefer Switzerland or Iceland compared to EU/US jurisdictions.
- 2Gkashmiri 2y ago
  I seem to have an old yahoo email that I had set up 2fa about 8 years ago. Recently it logged me out abruptly and wont let me back in. That number is with someone else and they are fearing otp hijacking and have blocked me. I have a considerable number of accounts liked to that so I am kinda in the soup. Urrrgh. Is there no standardized way to solve these problems ? I can give details about the email, recovery number, aliases, settings, last emails I remember Has no one faced these problems ?
  - beeboobaa3 2y ago
    The only way to solve it is to own your own domain and to make sure that you always pay for it. The catch is that you have to do this from the start. I'm hopeful that governments will eventually realize how impactful this is, and mandate email provides to implement forwarding services after an account is closed and they have verified your identity, possibly via government ID.
    - Beijinger 2y ago
      This is true. But let's face it. I don't know of any self hosted email that is as good as gmail. Maybe fastmail?
pavel_lishin 2y ago
Gredier for user data witth age?
- Tao3300 2y ago
  Dall-E crap. If they won't pay an illustrator, I don't really trust their human rights position.
- carimura 2y ago
  middle english? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gredy#Middle_English https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gredy#Middle_English
  - pavel_lishin 2y ago
    I guess their AI image generator speaks it fluently.
taeric 2y ago
Google themselves have tried to build several new revolutions throughout the years. Wave and Inbox are the ones I can easily remember. Workspaces probably should also count?
- modeless 2y ago
  Google Inbox had some issues but I really miss two things about it: the ability to make certain categories of email be hidden for the rest of the day or week after you reviewed them once, and the ability to add tasks to your inbox, either associated with emails or standalone. They said they would fold the functionality of inbox into Gmail but they never did for those features.
- thomascgalvin 2y ago
  Inbox was a legitimate improvement on "normal" email, and I still miss it.
- captn3m0 2y ago
  Worth remembering that Inbox was created by the Sparrow acquisition. Google hasn't innovated by itself in a long time.
zeroonetwothree 2y ago
The reason gmail was successful is that it didn’t revolutionize email. It was just a very good client that worked well but roughly the same as people were already used to. I’ve seen so many of these revolutionary email clients over the years but they all fail. It’s just too hard to get people to radically change their workflow, and tbh the current one isn’t even that bad.
- pupppet 2y ago
  The 1gb storage space certainly didn’t hurt either, at a time when Hotmail was offering peanuts.
  - Ekaros 2y ago
    From same period I saw mail for my 5 MB box being full... Offering 200 times this was enough...
- arcbyte 2y ago
  I'm curious what your workflow looks like? I come from the perspective that email is totally broken; both in my personal spam filled inbox and in my corporate information black hole email. So I'm genuinely curious
  - iancmceachern 2y ago
    Get good at searching, filters, modifiers, keywords, etc. My I boxes are huge, but I generally find what I need quickly by typing a fee searching filters and keywords
  - the_snooze 2y ago
    I have multiple email aliases that feed into the same box. I filter messages based on what alias they went through and who sent them. Nearly all messages get automatically marked as read; they're there, but I won't get notifed of them. For a few high priority senders who have my high priority alias, they get the star treatment: notification, star, reminder to reply, etc. Also, if you filter for the word "unsubscribe," you can cut through a good chunk of low-priority automatic messages.
karaterobot 2y ago
This doesn't get around that boil-the-ocean problem with email. Even if I use a more privacy-focused email service, if the people I'm emailing with are using Gmail or Outlook, my data's out there anyway. You need everyone who's using Gmail to stop using it at the same time, or you're not really avoiding Gmail. > We don’t need to write “Don’t Be Evil” into our code of conduct because it’s in our DNA. I mean, why not put it in there anyway then? Everybody thinks they're essentially good, including Google on the day they removed Don't Be Evil from their code of conduct.
rcMgD2BwE72F 2y ago
Gmail has stagnated so much, I can't believe it. Fastmail Web and mobile apps are 100x better (fast as hell, much clearer UI, no clutter, no ads…). Idem for Web search, I find Kagi so much better… I only use Youtube among all Google product nowadays, with lots of uBlock filters to make it simple (and remove all the crazy bad ads and recommendation). A few Google Maps search for location ratings (if only there was a review community for OrganicMaps…). I benefit somehow from AOSP through LineageOS but without any of the Google tracking and useless products' bundling. I hope my past investments don't make me too biases (shareholder from 2004 to 2012) but for the past decade, I feel like their products and services have become worse and worse. I wish more people could afford paid services like Fastmail and Kagi, I'm sure Google would try a little to compete and improve their apps. But I believe they'll have to die before they start doing more than passively exploiting their monopoly to passively generate profits from ads powered by big (never really consented) data collection. I wish.
- arbitrage 2y ago
  Fastmail is a paid solution, and you are comparing it to the ad-laden version of gmail. They are absolutely going to be different experiences. You do in fact appear to be heavily biased based on your previous involvement with google, it shows.
  - mococa 2y ago
    There's no such thing as free; when you don't pay for something, you're the product.
  - crisply5706 2y ago
    Gmail is also a paid solution, and it's pure concentrated garbage whether or not you pay for it.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 2y ago
    I have to use Gmail at work and we are definitely paying for this crap. We're actually looking at replacing Google Workspace with Fastmail or some alternatives. We'll only miss Google Sheet but we'll still have to use some of their development tools and services (due to Android being completely closed – no way you can publish apps without Google Play Services these times).
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
pif 2y ago
Yeah, it was a very nice revolution to look at all those ads matching the content of your email so well... We definitely need another such a step towards the Hell!
mxuribe 2y ago
I wish there was a new universal messaging platform that is: * based on open protocols (to foster choice in clients, system providers, etc.) * but whose encryption and security features are included from the ground up * plus the platform and associated protocols would support both short-term/brief/ephemeral style messaging like texting, instant messaging, chat...Plus, the slower-style messaging of emails. * finally, would be really great if the prime use-case was peer-to-peer communication *first* and only fall back to having a server (or server-related infra.) in those cases of bounce-back style issues, etc. ...But, maybe i'm asking too much in this age of blockchain, super-powered computing in phone-sized bricks, virtual/augmented reality, social media access to many global users, and AI. I know, i know, I've pretty much showcased the theme of XKCD 927 [https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/] ...but what can i say, it feels like in this day and age, we shouldn't be where we are with messaging. ;-)
- loudmax 2y ago
  You do want server-related infrastructure, at least so the clients can find each other. I think Matrix fits most of what you describe. I'd really like commercial Matrix offerings to become commonplace. I think there could be a market opportunity here, but most businesses would rather lock you into a proprietary service.
  - mxuribe 2y ago
    You're right that a server, or at least some server-like gateway node/mechanism (for discovery, client connections and likely other reasons - even if only temporary) would be needed. Also, as far as matrix, yeah i count myself as a super-duper fan boy of matrix...so, you're preaching to the choir here! :-) I so badly want matrix to keep gaining more mindshare and keep evolving its protocols, etc. I guess it could be used for "slower" style messaging like email too i suppose. I guess that would be managed/controlled all in the UX for a particular desktop/web/mobile client. Hmmm....I wonder what an email-style client would look like with matrix messaging underneath? EDIT: By the way, @loudmax i failed to mention that there are already some matrix commercial hosting/service providers...but its still early days for them. I think it will take time before they are more plentiful and as you noted more commonplace (I look forward to that!). See: https://matrix.org/ecosystem/hosting/ https://matrix.org/ecosystem/hosting/
blowski 2y ago
This seems like a generic advert for a generic email product, that's only posted here because it says "Google is bad". I don't disagree with the sentiment, but let's face it, if this company got the same level of traction as Google, we'd be talking about how they're now the bad guys and how do we migrate away from them.
mococa 2y ago
I used Gmail for almost 18 years, but recently I switched to an email with my own domain and now use Apple Mail to read and send emails. It's not perfect, but Gmail was wearing me out. Even though I was paying for One, I was still being shown ads, which I find unacceptable.
JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
You can’t register with a VPN though. Not that private after all.
ametrau 2y ago
Tutanova deletes your account after not logging in for 6 months. You can get it back if you sign up for premium.

34 points by dotcoma 2y ago

This is the first I've heard of Tuta. How does it compare to the more popular nerd-focused Gmail alternatives like fastmail, proton, or hey?

nyolfen 2y ago
similar to protonmail, european, came out of the post-snowden shift towards e2e services
gaganyaan 2y ago
I like their mission. I used them for a while and the service was great, but I got annoyed at not being able to use any other client than theirs. I wanted to use Thunderbird, but they don't support IMAP for encryption reasons. I switched to Fastmail and it's been nice, I like that they're fixing the shortcomings of email by pushing for new standards like jmap. I'd probably have stuck with Tuta if they had a plan for a new standard that let them be privacy oriented and also let me use Thunderbird.
- nicce 2y ago
  Yep, it is a bit too big walled garden at the moment. Since it is E2EE almost completely, it is harder to make alternative clients. But still they should offer some specification.
AwaAwa 2y ago
They aren't bad at all but be warned that you shouldn't use them for throwaway addresses that are lightly used. They will delete your account if there hasn't been activity for 6 months. Sounds like a lot of time, but surprising how quickly that time runs out. Something to be aware of up front.

daft_pink 2y ago

My problem having used proton is that the encrypted email services simply don’t integrate well with other services or email clients.

carimura 2y ago
this is in fact annoying with proton cal on a mac. i can only subscribe to it with mac cal (to see alongside my other calendars).

Beijinger 2y ago

Ungoogle yourself. Don't rely on google. I had transferred a quite valuable DID number to my Project Fi phone. Due to unfortunate circumstances I was not able to pay for a while. I lost: 1. The valuable number 2. Access to my Gmail Account. I know my PW but gmail won't let me log into gmail without confirming with the number that I lost. Hence, my gmail account is gone 3. Paid apps. I lost apps I paid for and that were linked to my phone or email, e.g. threma, insync etc. Had a lawyer write to google. No answer. Don't rely on google for anything important. I have a new gmail for my Android. I don't even know it out of my head since I don't use it. Why would I? At least Tuta has support. Somebody you can contact. But I prefer to control the domain too. Germany/US Based? I would prefer Switzerland or Iceland compared to EU/US jurisdictions.

2Gkashmiri 2y ago
I seem to have an old yahoo email that I had set up 2fa about 8 years ago. Recently it logged me out abruptly and wont let me back in. That number is with someone else and they are fearing otp hijacking and have blocked me. I have a considerable number of accounts liked to that so I am kinda in the soup. Urrrgh. Is there no standardized way to solve these problems ? I can give details about the email, recovery number, aliases, settings, last emails I remember Has no one faced these problems ?
- beeboobaa3 2y ago
  The only way to solve it is to own your own domain and to make sure that you always pay for it. The catch is that you have to do this from the start. I'm hopeful that governments will eventually realize how impactful this is, and mandate email provides to implement forwarding services after an account is closed and they have verified your identity, possibly via government ID.
  - Beijinger 2y ago
    This is true. But let's face it. I don't know of any self hosted email that is as good as gmail. Maybe fastmail?

pavel_lishin 2y ago

Gredier for user data witth age?

Tao3300 2y ago
Dall-E crap. If they won't pay an illustrator, I don't really trust their human rights position.
carimura 2y ago
middle english? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gredy#Middle_English https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gredy#Middle_English
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  I guess their AI image generator speaks it fluently.

taeric 2y ago

Google themselves have tried to build several new revolutions throughout the years. Wave and Inbox are the ones I can easily remember. Workspaces probably should also count?

modeless 2y ago
Google Inbox had some issues but I really miss two things about it: the ability to make certain categories of email be hidden for the rest of the day or week after you reviewed them once, and the ability to add tasks to your inbox, either associated with emails or standalone. They said they would fold the functionality of inbox into Gmail but they never did for those features.
thomascgalvin 2y ago
Inbox was a legitimate improvement on "normal" email, and I still miss it.
captn3m0 2y ago
Worth remembering that Inbox was created by the Sparrow acquisition. Google hasn't innovated by itself in a long time.

zeroonetwothree 2y ago

The reason gmail was successful is that it didn’t revolutionize email. It was just a very good client that worked well but roughly the same as people were already used to. I’ve seen so many of these revolutionary email clients over the years but they all fail. It’s just too hard to get people to radically change their workflow, and tbh the current one isn’t even that bad.

pupppet 2y ago
The 1gb storage space certainly didn’t hurt either, at a time when Hotmail was offering peanuts.
- Ekaros 2y ago
  From same period I saw mail for my 5 MB box being full... Offering 200 times this was enough...
arcbyte 2y ago
I'm curious what your workflow looks like? I come from the perspective that email is totally broken; both in my personal spam filled inbox and in my corporate information black hole email. So I'm genuinely curious
- iancmceachern 2y ago
  Get good at searching, filters, modifiers, keywords, etc. My I boxes are huge, but I generally find what I need quickly by typing a fee searching filters and keywords
- the_snooze 2y ago
  I have multiple email aliases that feed into the same box. I filter messages based on what alias they went through and who sent them. Nearly all messages get automatically marked as read; they're there, but I won't get notifed of them. For a few high priority senders who have my high priority alias, they get the star treatment: notification, star, reminder to reply, etc. Also, if you filter for the word "unsubscribe," you can cut through a good chunk of low-priority automatic messages.

karaterobot 2y ago

This doesn't get around that boil-the-ocean problem with email. Even if I use a more privacy-focused email service, if the people I'm emailing with are using Gmail or Outlook, my data's out there anyway. You need everyone who's using Gmail to stop using it at the same time, or you're not really avoiding Gmail. > We don’t need to write “Don’t Be Evil” into our code of conduct because it’s in our DNA. I mean, why not put it in there anyway then? Everybody thinks they're essentially good, including Google on the day they removed Don't Be Evil from their code of conduct.

rcMgD2BwE72F 2y ago

Gmail has stagnated so much, I can't believe it. Fastmail Web and mobile apps are 100x better (fast as hell, much clearer UI, no clutter, no ads…). Idem for Web search, I find Kagi so much better… I only use Youtube among all Google product nowadays, with lots of uBlock filters to make it simple (and remove all the crazy bad ads and recommendation). A few Google Maps search for location ratings (if only there was a review community for OrganicMaps…). I benefit somehow from AOSP through LineageOS but without any of the Google tracking and useless products' bundling. I hope my past investments don't make me too biases (shareholder from 2004 to 2012) but for the past decade, I feel like their products and services have become worse and worse. I wish more people could afford paid services like Fastmail and Kagi, I'm sure Google would try a little to compete and improve their apps. But I believe they'll have to die before they start doing more than passively exploiting their monopoly to passively generate profits from ads powered by big (never really consented) data collection. I wish.

arbitrage 2y ago
Fastmail is a paid solution, and you are comparing it to the ad-laden version of gmail. They are absolutely going to be different experiences. You do in fact appear to be heavily biased based on your previous involvement with google, it shows.
- mococa 2y ago
  There's no such thing as free; when you don't pay for something, you're the product.
- crisply5706 2y ago
  Gmail is also a paid solution, and it's pure concentrated garbage whether or not you pay for it.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 2y ago
  I have to use Gmail at work and we are definitely paying for this crap. We're actually looking at replacing Google Workspace with Fastmail or some alternatives. We'll only miss Google Sheet but we'll still have to use some of their development tools and services (due to Android being completely closed – no way you can publish apps without Google Play Services these times).

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

pif 2y ago

Yeah, it was a very nice revolution to look at all those ads matching the content of your email so well... We definitely need another such a step towards the Hell!

mxuribe 2y ago

I wish there was a new universal messaging platform that is: * based on open protocols (to foster choice in clients, system providers, etc.) * but whose encryption and security features are included from the ground up * plus the platform and associated protocols would support both short-term/brief/ephemeral style messaging like texting, instant messaging, chat...Plus, the slower-style messaging of emails. * finally, would be really great if the prime use-case was peer-to-peer communication *first* and only fall back to having a server (or server-related infra.) in those cases of bounce-back style issues, etc. ...But, maybe i'm asking too much in this age of blockchain, super-powered computing in phone-sized bricks, virtual/augmented reality, social media access to many global users, and AI. I know, i know, I've pretty much showcased the theme of XKCD 927 [https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/] ...but what can i say, it feels like in this day and age, we shouldn't be where we are with messaging. ;-)

loudmax 2y ago
You do want server-related infrastructure, at least so the clients can find each other. I think Matrix fits most of what you describe. I'd really like commercial Matrix offerings to become commonplace. I think there could be a market opportunity here, but most businesses would rather lock you into a proprietary service.
- mxuribe 2y ago
  You're right that a server, or at least some server-like gateway node/mechanism (for discovery, client connections and likely other reasons - even if only temporary) would be needed. Also, as far as matrix, yeah i count myself as a super-duper fan boy of matrix...so, you're preaching to the choir here! :-) I so badly want matrix to keep gaining more mindshare and keep evolving its protocols, etc. I guess it could be used for "slower" style messaging like email too i suppose. I guess that would be managed/controlled all in the UX for a particular desktop/web/mobile client. Hmmm....I wonder what an email-style client would look like with matrix messaging underneath? EDIT: By the way, @loudmax i failed to mention that there are already some matrix commercial hosting/service providers...but its still early days for them. I think it will take time before they are more plentiful and as you noted more commonplace (I look forward to that!). See: https://matrix.org/ecosystem/hosting/ https://matrix.org/ecosystem/hosting/

blowski 2y ago

This seems like a generic advert for a generic email product, that's only posted here because it says "Google is bad". I don't disagree with the sentiment, but let's face it, if this company got the same level of traction as Google, we'd be talking about how they're now the bad guys and how do we migrate away from them.

mococa 2y ago

I used Gmail for almost 18 years, but recently I switched to an email with my own domain and now use Apple Mail to read and send emails. It's not perfect, but Gmail was wearing me out. Even though I was paying for One, I was still being shown ads, which I find unacceptable.

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago

You can’t register with a VPN though. Not that private after all.

ametrau 2y ago

Tutanova deletes your account after not logging in for 6 months. You can get it back if you sign up for premium.