10 ms·

Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

90 points by sagischwarz 2y ago

mouse_ 2y ago
For a product whose main draw is the ability to have whatever connectors you want, the lack of a plain SD card module (a standard feature on macbooks, so standard in fact that they TRIED to get rid of it and had to backpeddle; an extremely rare move for Apple) destroyed my confidence in this company. I don't trust them.
- Kelteseth 2y ago
  Eh, I personally never bothered about SD cards. But at least they are on it: https://frame.work/de/en/products/sd-expansion-card https://frame.work/de/en/products/sd-expansion-card
- nilamo 2y ago
  They also don't have vga, but that seems like a weird reason to mistrust a company.
  - mouse_ 2y ago
    Neither does the MacBook. Still has SD though.
- FloatArtifact 2y ago
  Source?
- kiba 2y ago
  This is a weird reason to reject them. Not everybody uses SD card module.
  - CoBE10 2y ago
    From personal experience (I don't use SD cards often) I would rather have another USB A or C port instead of SD port. USB SD card readers are so much cheaper and smaller than Framework expansion cards, that having one in a bag takes less space, and you can carry them like USB flash drive.
    - kelnos 2y ago
      Well, that's one of the Framework's value props: you can have both, and swap out the card reader module for a port module if you want to. And if you aren't sure, you can always carry the module with you, which is no worse than if you had to carry an external reader.
- gravescale 2y ago
  It does seem a little strange considering that they have a microSD module which is electrically almost exactly the same thing (the only difference is the mechanical write protect toggle). Then again they have a miniscule engineering team but they have made two laptops with some pretty non-conventional design aspects and a bunch of modules including a swappable GPU and (one of?) the first 180W USB-C power supplies they're doing a pretty good job so far. Considering the relative rarity of SD cards compared to microSD, other than photo- and videographers who aren't really a core demographic, welded as they often are into the Mac ecosystem, I can see why it's not the biggest priority and it certainly doesn't smell of dishonesty. I mean, why would they even be up to shenanigans over SD cards of all things? Since they're on the case (ha, geddit?) anyway, you can get a $5 USB3 SD adapter today and buy the module when it comes out. Which is more than I can hope for with a recent ThinkPad!
  - Macha 2y ago
    > Considering the relative rarity of SD cards compared to microSD, other than photo- and videographers who aren't really a core demographic, welded as they often are into the Mac ecosystem, I can see why it's not the biggest priority and it certainly doesn't smell of dishonesty. I mean, why would they even be up to shenanigans over SD cards of all things? I do wonder how true it is that the "put microSD cards in your computer" market is smaller than the "put SD cards in your computer" market. If I think of the devices that I have microSD cards in (Nintendo Switch, Steam Deck, Windows tablet, phones), they're all devices where the microSD card just lives in the device and only gets removed when I'm upgrading the device. Or I guess there was the time I installed CFW on my 2DS XL. On the other hand, I take the SD card in and out of my camera much more often, despite it getting less use than the aforementioned microSD using devices. Not to mention most microSD cards are sold with a microSD -> SD adapter, so to me it feels like if you're going to do only one adapter, you'd do SD.
    - gravescale 2y ago
      I think the SD module won't be able to have the card flush. SD cards are 32mm long, and you need some PCB space for the socket cage and the USB-C on the other side. The retrofit PCB outline they provide is only 26.9mm from front edge to back edge, so an SD card will stick out a little bit. So perhaps they decided to first go for the one that lets users have the card flush for use like an expansion bay as well as for data transfer to/from devices. https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionCards/tree/main/Mechanical https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionCards/tree/mai...
- LightHugger 2y ago
  They have an SD card module just not the one you want. That also makes no sense as a reason not to "trust" them. You can want more from them maybe, but trust makes no sense in this context. Apple however makes a lot of sense to mistrust at pretty much every turn.
- multimoon 2y ago
  I don’t own a framework device as it’s not my kind of niche, but this seems like a really weird place to throw around the word “trust”. That implies you believe they are doing something shady or nefarious by not making a sd card module - which they aren’t. This is just an old fashioned business decision where it’s not the financial priority right now. What I think you mean to say is that it’s a feature required for you that they don’t have. In fact it looks like they’re making one soon: https://frame.work/products/sd-expansion-card https://frame.work/products/sd-expansion-card
  - paulmd 2y ago
    Honestly it is a trust issue. I almost bought a framework laptop last year. People pitched it as a seriously viable alternative to the MacBook and applied social pressure to give it serious consideration. I realize now that it would have been a serious waste of a large amount of money and time and yes, that is a trust issue. And you can say “well that wasn’t the official framework org” but they’re kinda holding themselves out as a serious contender (marketing on LTT etc) yet apparently don’t have things as basic as working Linux drivers (in their officially supported choice of distro)! I think there is indeed a general belief among the public that you need to at least get that far before holding yourself out for public consumption, as a non-beta product, yeah. When you do those sorts of things it’s clearly not being held out as an enthusiast device for tinkering etc, and then people will have some (reasonable) expectations that it’s gonna actually work. If not, arguably it’s FTC time at that point. It’s kinda the same as AMD graphics drivers on windows… having the fans repeatedly insist they’ve never had a driver issue for 10 years now (when Vega, rdna1, and rdna3 all had major issues that lasted a significant amount of time) does destroy trust among the public when they try it and see it’s not true. Nothing feels worse than recommending them to a friend based on seeming internet consensus and having them have problems over the advice I gave them. Spent a lot of time trying to debug remotely and get their 5700xt working etc, never did, they ended up selling and buying a 2060S that worked perfectly, and I’ve never trusted the fans again. The boy who cried wolf is a cultural touchstone for a reason, we don’t like being called to action for something that turns out to be untrue. And spending a lot of money to learn that lesson generally does create a trust issue that turns people off with these brands.
- jlkuester7 2y ago
  Doesn't Framework publish the schematics for building new modules? If so, I guess if there is a market for an SD card module, one will present itself...
- ben-schaaf 2y ago
  Only the macbook pro and mac studio have an SD card reader; hardly a standard feature.
- teaearlgraycold 2y ago
  They are not competing with Apple.
- numpad0 2y ago
  "Destroyed My Confidence in This Company" sounds too much, but makes me think, is Panasonic Let's note what a car is to a faster horse for Framework customer base? They have Intel 13th, 16GB onboard RAM, 3x USB-A, 2x TB4, VGA, HDMI, Ethernet, SD slot, 19V barrel jack input, removable battery, etc etc at $1999 starting. That should tick every major boxes that Framework 13 does except price. If by modularity people means SD and VGA and Framework modularity cannot accommodate that, that doesn't count. Has this all been just a massively roundabout way of finding that out?
- kelnos 2y ago
  I think it's a bit absurd to take something like "they don't make a full-size SD card reader module" and turn that into a trust issue. Unless, of course, they promised to design and sell one, and didn't follow through. Even then, seems a bit of an overreaction. Meanwhile, my 12th-gen Intel Framework 13 has severe thermal throttling issues that support hasn't been able to resolve after more than a year of back and forth. While my confidence in the company is at an all-time low, I don't think this is a trust issue. Anyway, they've already pre-announced a SD card module[0], and people can sign up to get updates about its development. They're even completely candid that it's not 100% certain they won't cancel the project. That sounds refreshingly trustworthy, over other companies that might promise it without disclosing the uncertainty, or even take pre-order money and hold onto it for who knows how long. [0] https://frame.work/de/en/products/sd-expansion-card https://frame.work/de/en/products/sd-expansion-card
- nosrepa 2y ago
  Since when are apple users afraid of buying dongles? I thought that was their pastime.
BadHumans 2y ago
I'm still bullish on Framework but the quality control issues I have seen from the Framework 16 are unacceptable for a device that cost as much as it does. They have also reused elements from the older Framework laptops that they should not have, namely the smaller keyboard and the smaller trackpad. I hope they pull it together because I want them to succeed.
- jlkuester7 2y ago
  Ignorant question here, but I have been wondering if they keyboard/trackpad would be upgradable in the future? Still rough to release a laptop at such a high price-point with sub-par UX, but it seems possible that they could release better components for the 16 in the future, right?
  - BadHumans 2y ago
    They are replaceable and they could release a larger keyboard and trackpad in the future.
- nrp 2y ago
  Note that both the keyboard and the touchpad are unique to the Framework Laptop 16. We reused the same keyswitch and keycap structure on the keyboard because the feedback we've gotten on those on Framework Laptop 13 have been almost universally positive. In Framework Laptop 16, we integrated them into a new module structure to enable Input Module swappability. For the touchpad, similarly, we used the same controller chip because we've seen it work well on Framework Laptop 13, but the touchpad surface dimensions and overall structure are unique to Framework Laptop 16.
  - BadHumans 2y ago
    I have not used the 16 yet as I decided to hold off after seeing the QC issues but most of the feedback I've seen and from what I can tell looking at the laptop is the trackpad is too small and the keyboard is too cramped. My 13 inch Thinkpad appears to have a more spaced out keyboard than the Framework 16.
johngladtj 2y ago
I've been pretty happy with my framework laptop so far, though it does run a bit hot particularly when trying to play games. Still for a coding/web browsing machine I've had a decent experience, though I do regret not waiting another 6 months so I could have gotten the 16 inch version.
qchris 2y ago
> Framework will need to step up its game, especially if it wants to sell more laptops to businesses—a lucrative slice of the PC industry that Framework is actively courting. This line really resonated with me. I own a 12th-gen Framework laptop personally, and have enjoyed using it enough that I wanted to have one at work as my existing machine is aging out. Like many businesses, my org requires some paperwork ("telecom approval") in order to buy computing hardware, which is basically a short questionnaire that I assume to check off some "we're not actively trying to backdoor you" boxes. I've had vendors get this turned around in <24 hours. Framework, however, has not been able to do this. Their reasoning is basically, per the article, > [..] interspersed with not-untrue but unsatisfying responses from Framework employees (some version of "we're a small company" is one of the most common) claiming their B2B lead is "swamped". Unfortunately, they've been that way since I started that approval request (with repeated follow-ups) 6 months ago, and can't even give me a timeline for when they might even be able to review it. I'm trying to get approval for an org with high-four-figures employees; not Google-size, but not exactly a small business either. The initial execution on their laptops has been good, and I'm hoping that it continues. But at least to me, it definitely feels like there's a lot of maturing to do for the company on the process for product support and customer experience.
- GTP 2y ago
  I'm not sure businesses would be interested in a modular laptop, I always assumed they prefer to just buy new ones when the time comes rather than having someone spending the time to service them for the needed uogrades. Currently, they don't even bother trying to reinstall Windows, which I think it would solve most of the performance problems that surface after about 3 years of operation of a laptop (assuming it's used for office work).
  - bluGill 2y ago
    My company has been lengthening replacement intervals with every budget cut. In the 1990s it made sense to replace computers as often as every 2 years - the new one would be twice as fast. Around 2000 that slowed down though, and so 3 years made sense. Today computers are expected to last 5 years. If the most common things to break are easy to repair it might make sense for a company to not replace computers are all anymore, just keep the important spare parts on hand. (they still need to keep new ones for weird accidents)
jjice 2y ago
I'm excited for their improvements. It's got to be incredibly hard to start a company that does what they do. Not the repairability part, but anything with modern hardware, firmware, and software. When I think of the other big names, they've all been around for quite some times and they were already established companies. I'm not excusing Framework, but I am excited for their future. My Framework 13 AMD has been running great for the last 6ish months. I've had a big where the screen won't come back on after a charged sleep twice now, but it's been a minute since that happened.
- mey 2y ago
  I have had to RMA my entire AMD laptop due to a BSOD issue, that lives on in the replacement device. It isn't a DIY config, using their charger, etc. I am 70% sure it's firmware, but no matter what the root cause is, I have little faith that the problem can be resolved due to lack of transparency or knowledge of the root cause. Edit: I think this is why Dell/Apple end up winning in the end. Stability in a computer is critical.
  - nrp 2y ago
    We've found and resolved this issue. We'll be promoting the BIOS update that resolves it to stable later today, but you can pick up the release (3.05) early here: https://community.frame.work/t/framework-laptop-13-ryzen-7040-bios-3-05-release-and-driver-bundle-beta/48276 https://community.frame.work/t/framework-laptop-13-ryzen-704...
    - mey 2y ago
      Oh thank god! Deploying it now. (Assuming you are referring to https://community.frame.work/t/random-hard-freezes-fw13-amd7840u-win11/39677 https://community.frame.work/t/random-hard-freezes-fw13-amd7... )
- nrp 2y ago
  Thanks for the trust and the belief, and we know that we need to prove it and live up to it by actually delivering on the results of product longevity.
xcdzvyn 2y ago
I must admit I'm honestly not impressed with my Framework. I'm sure it's decent for a Windows laptop - the repairability alone is certainly enough to set it apart there - but coming from a MacBook, everything's just.. worse. Were MacBook upgrades not so expensive (all i want is 16GB!) and my love affair with NixOS, I'd probably have regretted buying one.
- atribecalledqst 2y ago
  I have a Framework 16 pre-ordered and I've been waffling on whether to keep the preorder. My daily driver is a MacBook and honestly... I'm not expecting that to change. So I guess I don't mind if the Framework is a worse experience than the MacBook. It just needs to do the few things that I need a Windows laptop for. (and maybe support some experiments using desktop Linux...)
ParetoOptimal 2y ago
June is also when Wayland nvidia gaming and application should be fixed by an nvidia beta driver with explicit sync support. Year of the Linux desktop?!?!!!
starkparker 2y ago
I'm genuinely concerned that launching the 16 will kill them. They were already stretched too thin just by supporting both Intel and AMD on the 13, and the gaming-focused target market for the 16 won't have the same patience.
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  I had the same thoughts. 16 has a bunch of things I didn’t ask for, meanwhile firmware is still vulnerable to logofail. First things first, people.
deleted 2y ago
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redder23 2y ago
This is horrible and very disappointing to read. But of course they cash in big time, selling themselves as the underdog and the good guys, all so caring about repairability for the super-duper premium price tag of course. But they can not pay people to keep up with software? Why is this kind of hardware even this complicated that the others need 14 and 13 bios updates? Seems like a shitty hardware choice in the first place for reliable laptops. Sound like they should have chosen more established and tested hardware, not some kind of new cutting edge shit or whatever this is that needs this much care and updates. Especially if they can not keep up with it.
binkHN 2y ago
I seriously considered a Framework for a recent laptop purchase, but, ultimately, went with the venerable ThinkPad. That said, all is not rosy here either. BIOS updates to resolve issues still don't come out fast enough and there still are nagging firmware and driver issues that have not been resolved 6 months after the device was released.
gorjusborg 2y ago
I have bought two Framework 13 laptops, and have been happy with them overall. I love their vision of a repairable laptop, and have replaced parts on them, without issue. That is a great achievement. I have had issues with drivers, and specifically had to reinstall windows to reflash firmware to get a new touch pad to work in linux. Bummer, but I'm also running on the fringe a little, so I accept that. Overall, the experience has been positive, but I can just imagine how much of a tidal wave of support they must be experiencing. That's not to give them a pass. I hope they improve, but they are trying to do an audacious thing.
- dheera 2y ago
  My biggest gripe is that for something intended to be DIY upgradable, 2 years later, there is a complete lack of ecosystem and parts for it. I was hoping for pluggable modules for {IMU, GPS, barometer, geiger counter, air quality sensor, software-defined radio, 5G cellular, RGB LEDs, power-over-ethernet charging, even a small motor module so the laptop can drag itself around on the table}. And what do we get? Some stupid 2nd hand USB-C passthrough and HDMI modules. Not even a 2-USB-C module that the forums have been asking for ages. Not even a Dvorak keyboard. No e-Ink display option. No flush mount bezel option. No multiple camera options. No depth camera. No LIDAR. No 4K webcam. No low-light StarVis webcam. No stereo cam. No infrared webcam. No nothing. The ecosystem doesn't even exist. I was hoping for this to be the Raspberry Pi of laptops with a huge pile of parts on SeeedStudio and AliExpress that you can plug into it.
  - mixmastamyk 2y ago
    They need to sell millions before third parties will support them. When they do (and get firmware handled) they’ll be ready quickly.
  - pquki4 2y ago
    I guess this means not that many people buy Framework laptops, or at least not enough Framework users are interested enough in tweaking the laptop. Compare this situation to >$300 ergonomic keyboard circle, you might think that is an extremely niche market, but sounds like there are more weird keyboards out there than DIY framework parts.
ang_cire 2y ago
I actually really love my Framework 16 (which I'm writing this on), but the integration with Ubuntu (which is their supported Linux distro) was far less performant than I expected. I ended up installing Win11Pro on it, and since then I've been cherry (apart from being on Windows). I really do hope they begin to offer more customization and expansion options soon; I'd love to support them some more, but there's not anything that I need from them, since I got a couple extra modules when I ordered it. My biggest gripe is actually the LED array modules, because they don't have any convenient software to utilize them if I don't want to write python in my freetime. They're soliciting feedback on what people want out of them, but I definitely get the impression they're just planning to have users create the apps. Stuff like battery percentage or scrolling marquee should have been there from the get-go.
- luyu_wu 2y ago
  I expect this is largely a issue with the bleeding-edge AMD GPU and CPU which don't have great support yet. If you can, definitely try to get on the newest version of the kernel, I know a few people who've had success with that!
cjk2 2y ago
I actually have no problem with this because Dell/Lenovo/HP software and firmware is a mess. I suspect the issue is that the underlying platform is shit and a mess and this is being reflected in the software. At least Framework are trying, unlike Dell/Lenovo/HP.
- pquki4 2y ago
  Can't agree, at least Lenovo is trying: https://www.theverge.com/2024/2/25/24081225/lenovo-thinkpad-thinkbook-laptops-mwc-2024 https://www.theverge.com/2024/2/25/24081225/lenovo-thinkpad-... Dell on the other hand...
  - cjk2 2y ago
    Load of marketing crap. USB ports soldered onto the motherboard and have you ever tried buying parts from Lenovo? Also my T14 gen 3 has several firmware problems.
  - pquki4 2y ago
    Dude, I don't know what your expectations are, but you have to give credit where credit is due. Lenovo is never going to release a Framework-like product, nor will most of the PC manufacturers. Improving the repairability of devices, however little, is progress, and is much more than what the Apple Lord will ever want to give you. The ability to replace RAM modules is significant, as it is almost non-existent these days on premium, non-gaming 14in laptops. I am not a Lenovo fanboy or anything, and Lenovo has plenty to dislike, but they are doing great work and heading in the correct direction.
moondev 2y ago
Most underrated framework machine is the Chromebook edition. Firmware is solid and loaded up with 2 TB NVME and 64GB DDR. It's x86 with hyper threaded cores and nested virtualization support. Runs android apps, and any distro you want via crostini. Supports docker, KVM (windows and macOS) from crostini. USB passthrough to crostini is super easy via ChromeOS settings panel. Only thing I really miss is passing a PCI device to crostini like you can do with USB. In dev mode I have seen indications it may be possible but no luck yet. Passing the iGPU or a thunderbolt PCI device to crostini, then to a VM would be so awesome.
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  I see no reason to submit to google surveillance when the standard framework works well with fedora and mint etc.
  - hollerith 2y ago
    The reason is much better security.
- binkHN 2y ago
  Nice specs. I feel ChromeOS, as a whole, is underrated. It's the best PHD (Push Here Dummy) OS out there, and updates are less painful than any other mainstream OS. One step further is Crostini, allowing a power user to fully deploy all of Linux, and do it in a secure manner that doesn't affect the underlying OS.
pquki4 2y ago
I looked at a number of options when getting a new laptop earlier this year. Although I like the idea of modularized computers and support what Framework is doing, I cannot give them my money, because: 1. They are actually more expensive than something like ThinkPad X13/T14/T14s with the same specs (if you know how to find and use their "coupons"). It is definitely not as modularized (although that will also change in the next generation), but it is hard to justify spending more when you consider build quality and support. 2. There are still reliability issues, like what is mentioned in the article, and things like HDMI not working in certain conditions [0]. I knew that I need better than this. I used to tinker with Android ROMs/root and different Linux distros a lot back as an undergrad student, but I very quickly realized that, even as a grad student, I need something that is reliable and works, and I need to focus on real productive work instead of figuring out how to fix things. Since then, I only use mainstream laptops/phones with a standard setup as my main devices, although I sometimes have spare/separate devices for trying things out. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1biqwdm/laptop_let_me_down_at_a_conference_today/ https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1biqwdm/laptop_l...
nrp 2y ago
We are taking both the article and the comments here and elsewhere to heart. Our entire focus is on building products that get better over time through repair, upgrade, and overall design for longevity, and software is a necessary part of that. We recognize that we have fallen short of where we need to be, and are making the needed investments to resolve this. Last week, we published the final release for the Windows version of 12th Gen along with more context around what has stalled the Linux updater: https://knowledgebase.frame.work/framework-laptop-bios-and-driver-releases-12th-gen-intel-core-Bkx2kosqq https://knowledgebase.frame.work/framework-laptop-bios-and-d... Early this week, we'll be releasing final Framework Laptop 13 and Framework Laptop 16 AMD BIOS and Driver updates that have been in Community Beta testing over the last 10 days. A few months ago, we released an 11th Gen BIOS update for Windows: https://knowledgebase.frame.work/framework-laptop-bios-releases-S1dMQt6F https://knowledgebase.frame.work/framework-laptop-bios-relea... With each of these complete, we've resolved both infrastructure and process issues that make it faster for us to iterate on BIOS and driver updates on each platform. Obviously, our words here are not enough. We need to and commit to demonstrating this by actually improving both our iteration speed on software updates and our communication processes so that you both know the status and are aware when we have releases.
- cobri 2y ago
  Thank you for the willingness to listen to and act on feedback!
  - mixmastamyk 2y ago
    Hmm, feedback should not be required to realize firmware needs more frequent than >yearly/once releases. (Not to mention security issues that should be fixed a lot more quickly.)
nfriedly 2y ago
I've been pretty happy with my AMD Framework 13. There's been a couple of hiccups, but things have mostly worked well and I've gotten help, or at least explanations from the community forums for most issues I've hit. (Help getting the wifi working reliably in linux, an explanation for why the top of the touchpad isn't clickable, a workaround for charger incompatibility, etc.) It sounds like the wifi issue has now been fixed upstream, and apparently the BIOS beta they just released improves charger compatibility. So not perfect, but good and improving. I bought this thing to last a while, and I think they're on the right trajectory for that.
rowanG077 2y ago
Why don't they open source it and allow people to contribute fixes?
- luyu_wu 2y ago
  It's Insyde (they outsource firmware dev), so it's proprietary as of right now. Hopefully they can switch to an open firmware like Coreboot in the future.
nfriedly 2y ago
Framework posted a response to this at https://frame.work/blog/enabling-software-longevity https://frame.work/blog/enabling-software-longevity (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40054383 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40054383) It feels like a good response to me, similar to nrp's comments in this thread: it acknowledges the issue and explains what they're doing to address it.
milanaa 2y ago
[dead]

90 points by sagischwarz 2y ago

For a product whose main draw is the ability to have whatever connectors you want, the lack of a plain SD card module (a standard feature on macbooks, so standard in fact that they TRIED to get rid of it and had to backpeddle; an extremely rare move for Apple) destroyed my confidence in this company. I don't trust them.

Kelteseth 2y ago
Eh, I personally never bothered about SD cards. But at least they are on it: https://frame.work/de/en/products/sd-expansion-card https://frame.work/de/en/products/sd-expansion-card
nilamo 2y ago
They also don't have vga, but that seems like a weird reason to mistrust a company.
- mouse_ 2y ago
  Neither does the MacBook. Still has SD though.
FloatArtifact 2y ago
Source?
kiba 2y ago
This is a weird reason to reject them. Not everybody uses SD card module.
- CoBE10 2y ago
  From personal experience (I don't use SD cards often) I would rather have another USB A or C port instead of SD port. USB SD card readers are so much cheaper and smaller than Framework expansion cards, that having one in a bag takes less space, and you can carry them like USB flash drive.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    Well, that's one of the Framework's value props: you can have both, and swap out the card reader module for a port module if you want to. And if you aren't sure, you can always carry the module with you, which is no worse than if you had to carry an external reader.
gravescale 2y ago
It does seem a little strange considering that they have a microSD module which is electrically almost exactly the same thing (the only difference is the mechanical write protect toggle). Then again they have a miniscule engineering team but they have made two laptops with some pretty non-conventional design aspects and a bunch of modules including a swappable GPU and (one of?) the first 180W USB-C power supplies they're doing a pretty good job so far. Considering the relative rarity of SD cards compared to microSD, other than photo- and videographers who aren't really a core demographic, welded as they often are into the Mac ecosystem, I can see why it's not the biggest priority and it certainly doesn't smell of dishonesty. I mean, why would they even be up to shenanigans over SD cards of all things? Since they're on the case (ha, geddit?) anyway, you can get a $5 USB3 SD adapter today and buy the module when it comes out. Which is more than I can hope for with a recent ThinkPad!
- Macha 2y ago
  > Considering the relative rarity of SD cards compared to microSD, other than photo- and videographers who aren't really a core demographic, welded as they often are into the Mac ecosystem, I can see why it's not the biggest priority and it certainly doesn't smell of dishonesty. I mean, why would they even be up to shenanigans over SD cards of all things? I do wonder how true it is that the "put microSD cards in your computer" market is smaller than the "put SD cards in your computer" market. If I think of the devices that I have microSD cards in (Nintendo Switch, Steam Deck, Windows tablet, phones), they're all devices where the microSD card just lives in the device and only gets removed when I'm upgrading the device. Or I guess there was the time I installed CFW on my 2DS XL. On the other hand, I take the SD card in and out of my camera much more often, despite it getting less use than the aforementioned microSD using devices. Not to mention most microSD cards are sold with a microSD -> SD adapter, so to me it feels like if you're going to do only one adapter, you'd do SD.
  - gravescale 2y ago
    I think the SD module won't be able to have the card flush. SD cards are 32mm long, and you need some PCB space for the socket cage and the USB-C on the other side. The retrofit PCB outline they provide is only 26.9mm from front edge to back edge, so an SD card will stick out a little bit. So perhaps they decided to first go for the one that lets users have the card flush for use like an expansion bay as well as for data transfer to/from devices. https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionCards/tree/main/Mechanical https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionCards/tree/mai...
LightHugger 2y ago
They have an SD card module just not the one you want. That also makes no sense as a reason not to "trust" them. You can want more from them maybe, but trust makes no sense in this context. Apple however makes a lot of sense to mistrust at pretty much every turn.
multimoon 2y ago
I don’t own a framework device as it’s not my kind of niche, but this seems like a really weird place to throw around the word “trust”. That implies you believe they are doing something shady or nefarious by not making a sd card module - which they aren’t. This is just an old fashioned business decision where it’s not the financial priority right now. What I think you mean to say is that it’s a feature required for you that they don’t have. In fact it looks like they’re making one soon: https://frame.work/products/sd-expansion-card https://frame.work/products/sd-expansion-card
- paulmd 2y ago
  Honestly it is a trust issue. I almost bought a framework laptop last year. People pitched it as a seriously viable alternative to the MacBook and applied social pressure to give it serious consideration. I realize now that it would have been a serious waste of a large amount of money and time and yes, that is a trust issue. And you can say “well that wasn’t the official framework org” but they’re kinda holding themselves out as a serious contender (marketing on LTT etc) yet apparently don’t have things as basic as working Linux drivers (in their officially supported choice of distro)! I think there is indeed a general belief among the public that you need to at least get that far before holding yourself out for public consumption, as a non-beta product, yeah. When you do those sorts of things it’s clearly not being held out as an enthusiast device for tinkering etc, and then people will have some (reasonable) expectations that it’s gonna actually work. If not, arguably it’s FTC time at that point. It’s kinda the same as AMD graphics drivers on windows… having the fans repeatedly insist they’ve never had a driver issue for 10 years now (when Vega, rdna1, and rdna3 all had major issues that lasted a significant amount of time) does destroy trust among the public when they try it and see it’s not true. Nothing feels worse than recommending them to a friend based on seeming internet consensus and having them have problems over the advice I gave them. Spent a lot of time trying to debug remotely and get their 5700xt working etc, never did, they ended up selling and buying a 2060S that worked perfectly, and I’ve never trusted the fans again. The boy who cried wolf is a cultural touchstone for a reason, we don’t like being called to action for something that turns out to be untrue. And spending a lot of money to learn that lesson generally does create a trust issue that turns people off with these brands.
jlkuester7 2y ago
Doesn't Framework publish the schematics for building new modules? If so, I guess if there is a market for an SD card module, one will present itself...
ben-schaaf 2y ago
Only the macbook pro and mac studio have an SD card reader; hardly a standard feature.
teaearlgraycold 2y ago
They are not competing with Apple.
numpad0 2y ago
"Destroyed My Confidence in This Company" sounds too much, but makes me think, is Panasonic Let's note what a car is to a faster horse for Framework customer base? They have Intel 13th, 16GB onboard RAM, 3x USB-A, 2x TB4, VGA, HDMI, Ethernet, SD slot, 19V barrel jack input, removable battery, etc etc at $1999 starting. That should tick every major boxes that Framework 13 does except price. If by modularity people means SD and VGA and Framework modularity cannot accommodate that, that doesn't count. Has this all been just a massively roundabout way of finding that out?
kelnos 2y ago
I think it's a bit absurd to take something like "they don't make a full-size SD card reader module" and turn that into a trust issue. Unless, of course, they promised to design and sell one, and didn't follow through. Even then, seems a bit of an overreaction. Meanwhile, my 12th-gen Intel Framework 13 has severe thermal throttling issues that support hasn't been able to resolve after more than a year of back and forth. While my confidence in the company is at an all-time low, I don't think this is a trust issue. Anyway, they've already pre-announced a SD card module[0], and people can sign up to get updates about its development. They're even completely candid that it's not 100% certain they won't cancel the project. That sounds refreshingly trustworthy, over other companies that might promise it without disclosing the uncertainty, or even take pre-order money and hold onto it for who knows how long. [0] https://frame.work/de/en/products/sd-expansion-card https://frame.work/de/en/products/sd-expansion-card
nosrepa 2y ago
Since when are apple users afraid of buying dongles? I thought that was their pastime.

BadHumans 2y ago

I'm still bullish on Framework but the quality control issues I have seen from the Framework 16 are unacceptable for a device that cost as much as it does. They have also reused elements from the older Framework laptops that they should not have, namely the smaller keyboard and the smaller trackpad. I hope they pull it together because I want them to succeed.

jlkuester7 2y ago
Ignorant question here, but I have been wondering if they keyboard/trackpad would be upgradable in the future? Still rough to release a laptop at such a high price-point with sub-par UX, but it seems possible that they could release better components for the 16 in the future, right?
- BadHumans 2y ago
  They are replaceable and they could release a larger keyboard and trackpad in the future.
nrp 2y ago
Note that both the keyboard and the touchpad are unique to the Framework Laptop 16. We reused the same keyswitch and keycap structure on the keyboard because the feedback we've gotten on those on Framework Laptop 13 have been almost universally positive. In Framework Laptop 16, we integrated them into a new module structure to enable Input Module swappability. For the touchpad, similarly, we used the same controller chip because we've seen it work well on Framework Laptop 13, but the touchpad surface dimensions and overall structure are unique to Framework Laptop 16.
- BadHumans 2y ago
  I have not used the 16 yet as I decided to hold off after seeing the QC issues but most of the feedback I've seen and from what I can tell looking at the laptop is the trackpad is too small and the keyboard is too cramped. My 13 inch Thinkpad appears to have a more spaced out keyboard than the Framework 16.

johngladtj 2y ago

I've been pretty happy with my framework laptop so far, though it does run a bit hot particularly when trying to play games. Still for a coding/web browsing machine I've had a decent experience, though I do regret not waiting another 6 months so I could have gotten the 16 inch version.

qchris 2y ago

> Framework will need to step up its game, especially if it wants to sell more laptops to businesses—a lucrative slice of the PC industry that Framework is actively courting. This line really resonated with me. I own a 12th-gen Framework laptop personally, and have enjoyed using it enough that I wanted to have one at work as my existing machine is aging out. Like many businesses, my org requires some paperwork ("telecom approval") in order to buy computing hardware, which is basically a short questionnaire that I assume to check off some "we're not actively trying to backdoor you" boxes. I've had vendors get this turned around in <24 hours. Framework, however, has not been able to do this. Their reasoning is basically, per the article, > [..] interspersed with not-untrue but unsatisfying responses from Framework employees (some version of "we're a small company" is one of the most common) claiming their B2B lead is "swamped". Unfortunately, they've been that way since I started that approval request (with repeated follow-ups) 6 months ago, and can't even give me a timeline for when they might even be able to review it. I'm trying to get approval for an org with high-four-figures employees; not Google-size, but not exactly a small business either. The initial execution on their laptops has been good, and I'm hoping that it continues. But at least to me, it definitely feels like there's a lot of maturing to do for the company on the process for product support and customer experience.

GTP 2y ago
I'm not sure businesses would be interested in a modular laptop, I always assumed they prefer to just buy new ones when the time comes rather than having someone spending the time to service them for the needed uogrades. Currently, they don't even bother trying to reinstall Windows, which I think it would solve most of the performance problems that surface after about 3 years of operation of a laptop (assuming it's used for office work).
- bluGill 2y ago
  My company has been lengthening replacement intervals with every budget cut. In the 1990s it made sense to replace computers as often as every 2 years - the new one would be twice as fast. Around 2000 that slowed down though, and so 3 years made sense. Today computers are expected to last 5 years. If the most common things to break are easy to repair it might make sense for a company to not replace computers are all anymore, just keep the important spare parts on hand. (they still need to keep new ones for weird accidents)

jjice 2y ago

I'm excited for their improvements. It's got to be incredibly hard to start a company that does what they do. Not the repairability part, but anything with modern hardware, firmware, and software. When I think of the other big names, they've all been around for quite some times and they were already established companies. I'm not excusing Framework, but I am excited for their future. My Framework 13 AMD has been running great for the last 6ish months. I've had a big where the screen won't come back on after a charged sleep twice now, but it's been a minute since that happened.

mey 2y ago
I have had to RMA my entire AMD laptop due to a BSOD issue, that lives on in the replacement device. It isn't a DIY config, using their charger, etc. I am 70% sure it's firmware, but no matter what the root cause is, I have little faith that the problem can be resolved due to lack of transparency or knowledge of the root cause. Edit: I think this is why Dell/Apple end up winning in the end. Stability in a computer is critical.
- nrp 2y ago
  We've found and resolved this issue. We'll be promoting the BIOS update that resolves it to stable later today, but you can pick up the release (3.05) early here: https://community.frame.work/t/framework-laptop-13-ryzen-7040-bios-3-05-release-and-driver-bundle-beta/48276 https://community.frame.work/t/framework-laptop-13-ryzen-704...
  - mey 2y ago
    Oh thank god! Deploying it now. (Assuming you are referring to https://community.frame.work/t/random-hard-freezes-fw13-amd7840u-win11/39677 https://community.frame.work/t/random-hard-freezes-fw13-amd7... )
nrp 2y ago
Thanks for the trust and the belief, and we know that we need to prove it and live up to it by actually delivering on the results of product longevity.

xcdzvyn 2y ago

I must admit I'm honestly not impressed with my Framework. I'm sure it's decent for a Windows laptop - the repairability alone is certainly enough to set it apart there - but coming from a MacBook, everything's just.. worse. Were MacBook upgrades not so expensive (all i want is 16GB!) and my love affair with NixOS, I'd probably have regretted buying one.

atribecalledqst 2y ago
I have a Framework 16 pre-ordered and I've been waffling on whether to keep the preorder. My daily driver is a MacBook and honestly... I'm not expecting that to change. So I guess I don't mind if the Framework is a worse experience than the MacBook. It just needs to do the few things that I need a Windows laptop for. (and maybe support some experiments using desktop Linux...)

ParetoOptimal 2y ago

June is also when Wayland nvidia gaming and application should be fixed by an nvidia beta driver with explicit sync support. Year of the Linux desktop?!?!!!

starkparker 2y ago

I'm genuinely concerned that launching the 16 will kill them. They were already stretched too thin just by supporting both Intel and AMD on the 13, and the gaming-focused target market for the 16 won't have the same patience.

mixmastamyk 2y ago
I had the same thoughts. 16 has a bunch of things I didn’t ask for, meanwhile firmware is still vulnerable to logofail. First things first, people.

deleted 2y ago

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redder23 2y ago

This is horrible and very disappointing to read. But of course they cash in big time, selling themselves as the underdog and the good guys, all so caring about repairability for the super-duper premium price tag of course. But they can not pay people to keep up with software? Why is this kind of hardware even this complicated that the others need 14 and 13 bios updates? Seems like a shitty hardware choice in the first place for reliable laptops. Sound like they should have chosen more established and tested hardware, not some kind of new cutting edge shit or whatever this is that needs this much care and updates. Especially if they can not keep up with it.

binkHN 2y ago

I seriously considered a Framework for a recent laptop purchase, but, ultimately, went with the venerable ThinkPad. That said, all is not rosy here either. BIOS updates to resolve issues still don't come out fast enough and there still are nagging firmware and driver issues that have not been resolved 6 months after the device was released.

gorjusborg 2y ago

I have bought two Framework 13 laptops, and have been happy with them overall. I love their vision of a repairable laptop, and have replaced parts on them, without issue. That is a great achievement. I have had issues with drivers, and specifically had to reinstall windows to reflash firmware to get a new touch pad to work in linux. Bummer, but I'm also running on the fringe a little, so I accept that. Overall, the experience has been positive, but I can just imagine how much of a tidal wave of support they must be experiencing. That's not to give them a pass. I hope they improve, but they are trying to do an audacious thing.

dheera 2y ago
My biggest gripe is that for something intended to be DIY upgradable, 2 years later, there is a complete lack of ecosystem and parts for it. I was hoping for pluggable modules for {IMU, GPS, barometer, geiger counter, air quality sensor, software-defined radio, 5G cellular, RGB LEDs, power-over-ethernet charging, even a small motor module so the laptop can drag itself around on the table}. And what do we get? Some stupid 2nd hand USB-C passthrough and HDMI modules. Not even a 2-USB-C module that the forums have been asking for ages. Not even a Dvorak keyboard. No e-Ink display option. No flush mount bezel option. No multiple camera options. No depth camera. No LIDAR. No 4K webcam. No low-light StarVis webcam. No stereo cam. No infrared webcam. No nothing. The ecosystem doesn't even exist. I was hoping for this to be the Raspberry Pi of laptops with a huge pile of parts on SeeedStudio and AliExpress that you can plug into it.
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  They need to sell millions before third parties will support them. When they do (and get firmware handled) they’ll be ready quickly.
- pquki4 2y ago
  I guess this means not that many people buy Framework laptops, or at least not enough Framework users are interested enough in tweaking the laptop. Compare this situation to >$300 ergonomic keyboard circle, you might think that is an extremely niche market, but sounds like there are more weird keyboards out there than DIY framework parts.

ang_cire 2y ago

I actually really love my Framework 16 (which I'm writing this on), but the integration with Ubuntu (which is their supported Linux distro) was far less performant than I expected. I ended up installing Win11Pro on it, and since then I've been cherry (apart from being on Windows). I really do hope they begin to offer more customization and expansion options soon; I'd love to support them some more, but there's not anything that I need from them, since I got a couple extra modules when I ordered it. My biggest gripe is actually the LED array modules, because they don't have any convenient software to utilize them if I don't want to write python in my freetime. They're soliciting feedback on what people want out of them, but I definitely get the impression they're just planning to have users create the apps. Stuff like battery percentage or scrolling marquee should have been there from the get-go.

luyu_wu 2y ago
I expect this is largely a issue with the bleeding-edge AMD GPU and CPU which don't have great support yet. If you can, definitely try to get on the newest version of the kernel, I know a few people who've had success with that!

cjk2 2y ago

I actually have no problem with this because Dell/Lenovo/HP software and firmware is a mess. I suspect the issue is that the underlying platform is shit and a mess and this is being reflected in the software. At least Framework are trying, unlike Dell/Lenovo/HP.

pquki4 2y ago
Can't agree, at least Lenovo is trying: https://www.theverge.com/2024/2/25/24081225/lenovo-thinkpad-thinkbook-laptops-mwc-2024 https://www.theverge.com/2024/2/25/24081225/lenovo-thinkpad-... Dell on the other hand...
- cjk2 2y ago
  Load of marketing crap. USB ports soldered onto the motherboard and have you ever tried buying parts from Lenovo? Also my T14 gen 3 has several firmware problems.
- pquki4 2y ago
  Dude, I don't know what your expectations are, but you have to give credit where credit is due. Lenovo is never going to release a Framework-like product, nor will most of the PC manufacturers. Improving the repairability of devices, however little, is progress, and is much more than what the Apple Lord will ever want to give you. The ability to replace RAM modules is significant, as it is almost non-existent these days on premium, non-gaming 14in laptops. I am not a Lenovo fanboy or anything, and Lenovo has plenty to dislike, but they are doing great work and heading in the correct direction.

moondev 2y ago

Most underrated framework machine is the Chromebook edition. Firmware is solid and loaded up with 2 TB NVME and 64GB DDR. It's x86 with hyper threaded cores and nested virtualization support. Runs android apps, and any distro you want via crostini. Supports docker, KVM (windows and macOS) from crostini. USB passthrough to crostini is super easy via ChromeOS settings panel. Only thing I really miss is passing a PCI device to crostini like you can do with USB. In dev mode I have seen indications it may be possible but no luck yet. Passing the iGPU or a thunderbolt PCI device to crostini, then to a VM would be so awesome.

mixmastamyk 2y ago
I see no reason to submit to google surveillance when the standard framework works well with fedora and mint etc.
- hollerith 2y ago
  The reason is much better security.
binkHN 2y ago
Nice specs. I feel ChromeOS, as a whole, is underrated. It's the best PHD (Push Here Dummy) OS out there, and updates are less painful than any other mainstream OS. One step further is Crostini, allowing a power user to fully deploy all of Linux, and do it in a secure manner that doesn't affect the underlying OS.

pquki4 2y ago

I looked at a number of options when getting a new laptop earlier this year. Although I like the idea of modularized computers and support what Framework is doing, I cannot give them my money, because: 1. They are actually more expensive than something like ThinkPad X13/T14/T14s with the same specs (if you know how to find and use their "coupons"). It is definitely not as modularized (although that will also change in the next generation), but it is hard to justify spending more when you consider build quality and support. 2. There are still reliability issues, like what is mentioned in the article, and things like HDMI not working in certain conditions [0]. I knew that I need better than this. I used to tinker with Android ROMs/root and different Linux distros a lot back as an undergrad student, but I very quickly realized that, even as a grad student, I need something that is reliable and works, and I need to focus on real productive work instead of figuring out how to fix things. Since then, I only use mainstream laptops/phones with a standard setup as my main devices, although I sometimes have spare/separate devices for trying things out. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1biqwdm/laptop_let_me_down_at_a_conference_today/ https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1biqwdm/laptop_l...

nrp 2y ago

We are taking both the article and the comments here and elsewhere to heart. Our entire focus is on building products that get better over time through repair, upgrade, and overall design for longevity, and software is a necessary part of that. We recognize that we have fallen short of where we need to be, and are making the needed investments to resolve this. Last week, we published the final release for the Windows version of 12th Gen along with more context around what has stalled the Linux updater: https://knowledgebase.frame.work/framework-laptop-bios-and-driver-releases-12th-gen-intel-core-Bkx2kosqq https://knowledgebase.frame.work/framework-laptop-bios-and-d... Early this week, we'll be releasing final Framework Laptop 13 and Framework Laptop 16 AMD BIOS and Driver updates that have been in Community Beta testing over the last 10 days. A few months ago, we released an 11th Gen BIOS update for Windows: https://knowledgebase.frame.work/framework-laptop-bios-releases-S1dMQt6F https://knowledgebase.frame.work/framework-laptop-bios-relea... With each of these complete, we've resolved both infrastructure and process issues that make it faster for us to iterate on BIOS and driver updates on each platform. Obviously, our words here are not enough. We need to and commit to demonstrating this by actually improving both our iteration speed on software updates and our communication processes so that you both know the status and are aware when we have releases.

cobri 2y ago
Thank you for the willingness to listen to and act on feedback!
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  Hmm, feedback should not be required to realize firmware needs more frequent than >yearly/once releases. (Not to mention security issues that should be fixed a lot more quickly.)

nfriedly 2y ago

I've been pretty happy with my AMD Framework 13. There's been a couple of hiccups, but things have mostly worked well and I've gotten help, or at least explanations from the community forums for most issues I've hit. (Help getting the wifi working reliably in linux, an explanation for why the top of the touchpad isn't clickable, a workaround for charger incompatibility, etc.) It sounds like the wifi issue has now been fixed upstream, and apparently the BIOS beta they just released improves charger compatibility. So not perfect, but good and improving. I bought this thing to last a while, and I think they're on the right trajectory for that.

rowanG077 2y ago

Why don't they open source it and allow people to contribute fixes?

luyu_wu 2y ago
It's Insyde (they outsource firmware dev), so it's proprietary as of right now. Hopefully they can switch to an open firmware like Coreboot in the future.

nfriedly 2y ago

Framework posted a response to this at https://frame.work/blog/enabling-software-longevity https://frame.work/blog/enabling-software-longevity (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40054383 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40054383) It feels like a good response to me, similar to nrp's comments in this thread: it acknowledges the issue and explains what they're doing to address it.

milanaa 2y ago

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