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I think the critical difference is that Japan is an ally and China is not.
by sanxiyn 3y ago
I think the critical difference is that Japan is an ally and China is not.
- Loughla 3y agoFor now? I am pretty sure that at one point China was an ally and Japan an enemy. I think.
- impulser_ 3y agoYeah but times are very different than the past. Today, Japan is one of our greatest allies in the region and their economy depends heavily on the US. The US is Japan's #1 trade partner and a lot of their industries are heavily involved in the US. For them to become an enemy of the of the US would probably kill their economy.
- frumper 3y agoThe US is China's #1 trade partner...
- tw04 3y agoAnd I’m pretty sure if Japan became adversarial, there would be a breakup triggered on national security concerns.
- comex 3y agoFor the last 80 years. Things will probably change someday, but not anytime soon.
- woooooo 3y agoIn the 80s and 90s there was a lot of hostility to Japan, because they looked like they might surpass us economically. They were even the villain of some Tom Clancy books. Now, the fear/hate is aimed at China, same reason.
- jszymborski 3y agoThere's more reason than that for Western hostility to China, not least of which is that it is an authoritarian regime with aggressive expansionist goals. Let's also not forget the reciprocity of the hostilities.
- pfannkuchen 3y ago> aggressive expansionist goals Like reintegrating Taiwan and HK? Anything else? Tibet I guess? I thought China was generally satisfied with its borders, except for areas it feels were split off due to external interference.
- jszymborski 3y agoI mean, I feel like "generally satsified but for a couple of sovreign states" is handwaving things a bit. Russia similarly feels Ukraine was split off due to "external interference". Makes the claim no more legitimate. But also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_imperialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_imperialism
- przemub 3y agoSo just give or take 35 million people, with Taiwan being integral to the world's chip manufacturing industry, and HK conquest violating the handover treaty. That's far from nothing.
- jjk166 3y agoThere's a lot of areas that it feels were split off due to external influence. Arguably nearly the whole of east Asia has at some point or another been under some form of Chinese control. They are making extensive claims on the south china sea into waters contested with Vietnam and the Philippines. There are several small islands between Taiwan and Japan which are China claims (and more importantly the oil beneath them). There are a number of territorial disputes with India and Bhutan over control of parts of the Tibetan Plateau which are critical to the water supplies of nearly the whole of Asia. Additionally several border disputes previously settled between China and it's neighbors, such as Russia and the states of Central Asia, are likely to be reconsidered as Russian influence in the region diminishes. China has also been proactively setting up claims to various exclaves around the world, primarily in the Indian Ocean and Africa. They've set up various "debt traps" where they lend money to build infrastructure like ports to nations that have no serious chance at repaying the loans, and should they default then China receives control. Additionally China is pursuing traditional overseas military bases in Burma, Cuba, Equatorial Guinea, Pakistan, Seychelles, Sri Lanka, Tajikistan, Tanzania, and the UAE, in addition to bases it already has in Djibouti and Cambodia. Such bases are not in and of themselves expansionist, and probably are more about keeping vital trade links open, but increased ability to project power would be a pre-requisite for any expansionist goals in those regions.
- bozhark 3y agoChina has never been a western ally
- dudeinjapan 3y agoPerhaps you are forgetting WWII, when China was a main member of a group which literally called themselves "The Allies" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Policemen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Policemen
- jsiepkes 3y agoCalling yourself "the allies" doesn't make you long term allies. It was just a group with a common enemy for short a time. Take Stalin, also part of "the Allies", he had invaded Poland together with Hitler and also invaded Finland. Couple of years later he was fighting Hitler because he got stabbed in the back by Hitler. And after WWII the west got into the coldwar with Stalin.
- hnfong 3y ago> Calling yourself "the allies" doesn't make you long term allies. The original claim was literally "China has never been a western ally". GP pointed out a counter example during WWII. Your response seems to be against a strawman argument...
- dudeinjapan 3y agoHad the Nationalists in China prevailed against Mao they would have likely remained a Western ally. Certainly their descendants in Taiwan are today. But who knows?
- bdjsiqoocwk 3y agoVery apt example on Stalin, exactly right.
- woodruffw 3y agoChina was very notably an ally while the KMT was in power of mainland China.
- kjkjadksj 3y agoJapan is littered in American military bases and personnel. It is practically a territory with a fig leaf of domestic policy self determination.
- hx8 3y agoExcept the yen is the third most traded currency globally and Japan has the 4th largest economy in the world. It's true that their military strategic position is heavily dependent on the alliance with the US, but they performed exceptionally well with their 'fig leaf' of 'self determination.'
- kjkjadksj 3y agoAnd that was done with an unparalleled level of american investment to build such a trade partner. Billions of dollars spent by the american government alone in aid that largely came in the form of grants, not loans. Billions more in investment by american banks and funds through the years. Majority shareholder in toyota today is a private bank out of Plano, TX.
- blackhawkC17 3y ago> Majority shareholder in toyota today is a private bank out of Plano, TX. Correction - Fisher Investment is the largest individual shareholder, with just a 0.05% stake. Stating "majority" would mean they own >50%. https://www.wallstreetzen.com/stocks/us/nyse/tm/ownership#:~:text=Toyota%20Motor%20Stock%20Ownership%20FAQ&text=Toyota%20Motor%20(NYSE%3A%20TM),representing%200.05%25%20of%20the%20company https://www.wallstreetzen.com/stocks/us/nyse/tm/ownership#:~....
- bdjsiqoocwk 3y agoThe difference is that Japan is a Western country, China isn't.
- ludston 3y agoWhat? You mean capitalist nation rather than communist right?
- bdjsiqoocwk 3y agoNo, I mean with rule of law and powerful institutions. As opposited to China (or Russia), which have law, but institutions are engineered so that the person in power can highjack them to ensure the outcomes they want. Think about it. In western countries (US, UK, EU, Japan, etc) you can have a court rule something that is seriously inconvenient for the government. In China and Russia that never happens.
- throwaway2037 3y agoOverall, I agree with your sentiment. The specific example that you chose was very thoughtful. If parliament is forced to accept a court decision, it says a lot about the maturity of a democracy. However, I take issue with the term "Western". In this case, I would say the most advanced countries in OECD, which implies: highly functioning democracy and highly industrialised, capitalist economy. To be clear, for historical reasons there are some, err, odd members in OECD, including Turkey (currently a dysfunctional democracy) and Mexico (high levels of perceived corruption, drug war, poor control of police). And, to be fair, I don't have a good way to decide which are "the most advanced countires in OECD".