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> I always wonder why people seemingly can’t apply their experiences beyond themselves I grew up lower middle class, and I didn't have it easy. I have no idea

> I always wonder why people seemingly can’t apply their experiences beyond themselves I grew up lower middle class, and I didn't have it easy. I have no idea who my birth parents were. I had an abusive father. I was bullied and beaten relentlessly by the other children that didn't like on-the-spectrum kids. I didn't party like those that abused me, I withdrew into myself and turned that into hard work. So when I see people [1] wanting me to pay for their choices, I feel used. When I see people demanding way more than I take for myself. It's as if the people that caused my problems are now trying to ride on my back. Does that help lend perspective for how some people feel about calls to increase taxes to pay for this? This doesn't mean that I'm unkind, uncaring, or unsympathetic. I just don't think US healthcare or how it is utilized is efficient, and I don't think armchair posturing or giving money to bureaucrats, administrators, or anyone without skin in the game will make it better. edit: I removed the analogy and replaced it with a personal anecdote. [1] The comments and downvotes here are probably from wealthy / well-off people on HN

undersuit 3y ago
Where's your proof the partying is causing it? Cleaning the house can be far more dangerous if you want to ask my un-sourced opinion. EDIT The person I replied to edited their post. I'm replying to the argument: >>> I always wonder why people seemingly can’t apply their experiences beyond themselves >An analogy: I wonder why my lack of partying has to pay for the partying of others.
trust_bt_verify 3y ago
What are they demanding that you are not? Everyone wants to be healthy and they want a medical system which helps them get there. If partying is a problem, they should be able to talk to a doctor about it, and it should be paid for as a part of the services provided by society.
- echelon 3y ago
  > If partying is a problem, they should be able to talk to a doctor about it, and it should be paid for as a part of the services provided by society. I feel like I'm on an alien planet here. We should pay for people to get lifestyle advice? This is malinvestment. Put that money into research instead.
  - foldr 3y ago
    Paying for people to get lifestyle advice is a great investment as it reduces both the cost of their healthcare and various externalities associated with living in a society where lots of people are unhealthy.
    - echelon 3y ago
      How much does that cost? Edit: Why should we pay for this instead of food insecurity, education, research, etc.? Will measured outcomes give us bang for the buck?
      - foldr 3y ago
        Prevention generally costs less than treatment. It’s a great way to save money overall - unless you want to be the person at the restaurant who won’t split the bill because one of your party ordered extra fries.
- nradov 3y ago
  Your expectations are unreasonable. The medical system is extremely expensive to operate. Highly paid physicians should be reserved for delivering the most complex care. If consumers need guidance on making healthier lifestyle choices then doctors aren't even the best source. Utilize cheaper professionals for that stuff: therapists, counselors, social workers, dieticians, personal trainers, etc.
  - trust_bt_verify 3y ago
    You are really extrapolating on what you think my expectations are. I never said everyone is entitled to a 3 hour conversation with a surgeon about the benefits of organic foods on their diets. Do you not discuss your lifestyle choices with your doctor at your yearly physical? That is as far as my expectations went for my previous comment and I believe that should be provided to every citizen of a modern society.
    - nradov 3y ago
      I don't get a yearly physical. While I do get a few periodic screenings there is no proven benefit to a yearly physical for asymptomatic adults. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK82767/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK82767/ When I do see a doctor I don't waste time discussing lifestyle choices with them. Doctors have minimal training in that area and it's largely a waste of time. I rely on physicians for medical issues only. There are far better sources for other topics. Instead of telling us what you believe, stick to evidence-based medicine.
      - trust_bt_verify 3y ago
        Well that is quite the charmed perspective on life you have, a specialist for every question available when needed. Many don't have the access you do and a yearly chat with their primary care doctor goes a long way for their health.
        nradov 3y ago
        You're really missing the point or being intentionally obtuse. The people who are better qualified to provide guidance on lifestyle issues are actually less expensive and more accessible than doctors. A "yearly chat" with a primary care doctor does little or nothing for the health of asymptomatic adults. Did you even read the article I linked above?
Wool2662 3y ago
Ah yes those people wanting real healthcare. What entitled idiots. Anyways let's finance another 200 mio yacht for the pharma ceos, they worked hard after all. You might be one of the one day since you work hard...
olliej 3y ago
... I had it tough, therefore others should too? What if those others had it tougher than you? have you apologized to them for having it so much easier? Or, hear me out, maybe the goal should be for tomorrow to be better than today, or yesterday, and that definitionally means a lot of stuff gets easier. Complaining as you're doing here is the same as saying "this cancer treatment should be banned because I lost family members to cancer when it wasn't available, and it's unfair for cancer patients today to have it easier than we did" Also as an addendum because you're pulling the I had it tough card: my parents had me as teenagers, then they were uni students with no money until I was 6 or 7, and I was deaf, had severe asthma, and so was relentlessly bullied due to a lisp I had because, you know, I was deaf until I was 5. We lived in a house that would be better described as a shed - corrugated steel walls and siding, etc we were not anywhere near "middle class". Guess what: I still think people should not have to go through that just because I did. JFC.
- echelon 3y ago
  My original post suggests that costs should be attributed to risks. If you take an outsized portion of health care relative to the rest of society, there's a chance that may be linked to behavioral choice. If you smoke a pack every day, eat two McGriddles every morning, film parkour stunts for your YouTube channel, go to the STD clinic monthly, are an alcoholic, etc. Society should not be paying for this in the same way it pays for cancer and freak accidents. It's malinvestment that could have been prevented.
  - foldr 3y ago
    If health insurance were priced according to individual risk then a huge swathe of the population wouldn’t be able to afford health insurance (as indeed is still the case to some extent, even after Obamacare). And that’s assuming that you leave Medicare and Medicaid in place - which logically you shouldn’t, according to your line of argument. How it could be a malinvestment for a society to invest in the health of...its very own constituents, is a nut that I won’t attempt to crack.
    - 3y ago
aaomidi 3y ago
> The comments and downvotes here are probably from wealthy / well-off people on HN This is funny because statistically wealthy people are the ones usually against increases in taxes. I was born in Iran, so I’ve dealt with my fair share of bullshit. My conclusion from my life is that we are individuals and we are a collective as well. A collective where if there’s a lot of illness in a part of it, it makes us all sick. Second off we literally do not need more taxes to have proper healthcare in this country. We do not have a money problem, but a politics and policy problem. We have a problem that a lot of people think that by helping others, they’re the ones getting punished. A healthy society means a society that has more energy and time to work on problems that benefit us all. May I suggest this, instead of seeing healthcare coverage for more people as a punishment for you, see it as a collective investment to allow people to focus on things that matter. And, note that healthcare isn’t the point of service by a doctor. It means healthy city design. Healthy subsidies for food (instead of subsidies HFCS for example). It means better public transit. It means actual neighbors and neighborhoods. It means longer weekends.

undersuit 3y ago

Where's your proof the partying is causing it? Cleaning the house can be far more dangerous if you want to ask my un-sourced opinion. EDIT The person I replied to edited their post. I'm replying to the argument: >>> I always wonder why people seemingly can’t apply their experiences beyond themselves >An analogy: I wonder why my lack of partying has to pay for the partying of others.

trust_bt_verify 3y ago

What are they demanding that you are not? Everyone wants to be healthy and they want a medical system which helps them get there. If partying is a problem, they should be able to talk to a doctor about it, and it should be paid for as a part of the services provided by society.

echelon 3y ago
> If partying is a problem, they should be able to talk to a doctor about it, and it should be paid for as a part of the services provided by society. I feel like I'm on an alien planet here. We should pay for people to get lifestyle advice? This is malinvestment. Put that money into research instead.
- foldr 3y ago
  Paying for people to get lifestyle advice is a great investment as it reduces both the cost of their healthcare and various externalities associated with living in a society where lots of people are unhealthy.
  - echelon 3y ago
    How much does that cost? Edit: Why should we pay for this instead of food insecurity, education, research, etc.? Will measured outcomes give us bang for the buck?
    - foldr 3y ago
      Prevention generally costs less than treatment. It’s a great way to save money overall - unless you want to be the person at the restaurant who won’t split the bill because one of your party ordered extra fries.
nradov 3y ago
Your expectations are unreasonable. The medical system is extremely expensive to operate. Highly paid physicians should be reserved for delivering the most complex care. If consumers need guidance on making healthier lifestyle choices then doctors aren't even the best source. Utilize cheaper professionals for that stuff: therapists, counselors, social workers, dieticians, personal trainers, etc.
- trust_bt_verify 3y ago
  You are really extrapolating on what you think my expectations are. I never said everyone is entitled to a 3 hour conversation with a surgeon about the benefits of organic foods on their diets. Do you not discuss your lifestyle choices with your doctor at your yearly physical? That is as far as my expectations went for my previous comment and I believe that should be provided to every citizen of a modern society.
  - nradov 3y ago
    I don't get a yearly physical. While I do get a few periodic screenings there is no proven benefit to a yearly physical for asymptomatic adults. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK82767/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK82767/ When I do see a doctor I don't waste time discussing lifestyle choices with them. Doctors have minimal training in that area and it's largely a waste of time. I rely on physicians for medical issues only. There are far better sources for other topics. Instead of telling us what you believe, stick to evidence-based medicine.
    - trust_bt_verify 3y ago
      Well that is quite the charmed perspective on life you have, a specialist for every question available when needed. Many don't have the access you do and a yearly chat with their primary care doctor goes a long way for their health.
      - nradov 3y ago
        You're really missing the point or being intentionally obtuse. The people who are better qualified to provide guidance on lifestyle issues are actually less expensive and more accessible than doctors. A "yearly chat" with a primary care doctor does little or nothing for the health of asymptomatic adults. Did you even read the article I linked above?

Wool2662 3y ago

Ah yes those people wanting real healthcare. What entitled idiots. Anyways let's finance another 200 mio yacht for the pharma ceos, they worked hard after all. You might be one of the one day since you work hard...

olliej 3y ago

... I had it tough, therefore others should too? What if those others had it tougher than you? have you apologized to them for having it so much easier? Or, hear me out, maybe the goal should be for tomorrow to be better than today, or yesterday, and that definitionally means a lot of stuff gets easier. Complaining as you're doing here is the same as saying "this cancer treatment should be banned because I lost family members to cancer when it wasn't available, and it's unfair for cancer patients today to have it easier than we did" Also as an addendum because you're pulling the I had it tough card: my parents had me as teenagers, then they were uni students with no money until I was 6 or 7, and I was deaf, had severe asthma, and so was relentlessly bullied due to a lisp I had because, you know, I was deaf until I was 5. We lived in a house that would be better described as a shed - corrugated steel walls and siding, etc we were not anywhere near "middle class". Guess what: I still think people should not have to go through that just because I did. JFC.

echelon 3y ago
My original post suggests that costs should be attributed to risks. If you take an outsized portion of health care relative to the rest of society, there's a chance that may be linked to behavioral choice. If you smoke a pack every day, eat two McGriddles every morning, film parkour stunts for your YouTube channel, go to the STD clinic monthly, are an alcoholic, etc. Society should not be paying for this in the same way it pays for cancer and freak accidents. It's malinvestment that could have been prevented.
- foldr 3y ago
  If health insurance were priced according to individual risk then a huge swathe of the population wouldn’t be able to afford health insurance (as indeed is still the case to some extent, even after Obamacare). And that’s assuming that you leave Medicare and Medicaid in place - which logically you shouldn’t, according to your line of argument. How it could be a malinvestment for a society to invest in the health of...its very own constituents, is a nut that I won’t attempt to crack.
  - 3y ago

aaomidi 3y ago

> The comments and downvotes here are probably from wealthy / well-off people on HN This is funny because statistically wealthy people are the ones usually against increases in taxes. I was born in Iran, so I’ve dealt with my fair share of bullshit. My conclusion from my life is that we are individuals and we are a collective as well. A collective where if there’s a lot of illness in a part of it, it makes us all sick. Second off we literally do not need more taxes to have proper healthcare in this country. We do not have a money problem, but a politics and policy problem. We have a problem that a lot of people think that by helping others, they’re the ones getting punished. A healthy society means a society that has more energy and time to work on problems that benefit us all. May I suggest this, instead of seeing healthcare coverage for more people as a punishment for you, see it as a collective investment to allow people to focus on things that matter. And, note that healthcare isn’t the point of service by a doctor. It means healthy city design. Healthy subsidies for food (instead of subsidies HFCS for example). It means better public transit. It means actual neighbors and neighborhoods. It means longer weekends.