5 ms·

My 8 yr old identical twin daughter’s have severe autism but one is definitely worse than the other, one of them can use some words but the other is completely

My 8 yr old identical twin daughter’s have severe autism but one is definitely worse than the other, one of them can use some words but the other is completely unable to communicate. I have absolutely no explanation for this, I cannot think of anything different that happened to them. They didn’t have antibiotics or surgery at a young age like in this story either.

mikebrave 2y ago
It was my understanding that Autism was more or less that the neurons in the brain expanded further than they could support and the parts that weren't supported atrophied, kinda like a tree that overgrew, think what happens to a fruit tree that isn't pruned. Everyone's brain does some growth and pruning as needed, but something happens with autism that more or less it goes too far and then the parts that atrophy are less controlled than an average brain. This is why savants etc. This process could express completely different in people that were more or less the same genetically, just one day in a womb where they got different amounts of nutrition could cause differences to manifest, then a lifetime of small differences would further manifest differently.
burnte 2y ago
There's genetics, but then there's gene expression which is affected by the world, so they clearly grew differently.
- djhope99 2y ago
  Thank you this is helpful. The genetic part makes sense to me, my wife has PCOS and they have a history of ovarian problems in their family. There are studies linking PCOS and autism and to high levels of testosterone. The mystery to me was why they are so different.
  - burnte 2y ago
    Yep, for decades thought genes were everything, then we started to realize epigenetics and proteomics are even more important. DNA is the code, and as we all know code can run differently in different environments.
  - wizzwizz4 2y ago
    Those studies were designed to confirm Professor Sir Simon Baron-Cohen's "extreme male brain" theory (which, by the way, is a crock of shit). High androgen levels and high oestrogen levels are associated with autism (ref: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-019-0454-9 https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-019-0454-9) and there's no reason to believe the arrow of causality points in any particular direction. I recommend you not focus overmuch on why your kids are autistic. (The most likely reason is that one or both of the biological parents are autistic.) Disabilities are contextual, and autism can be a significant disability if you want to "live a normal life", so the best approach is not to impose arbitrary constraints and unrealistic expectations on them. (And really, who wants to keep up with the Joneses, anyway? https://xkcd.com/308/ https://xkcd.com/308/) If you're interested in the topic generally, by all means learn about it, but none of this will help your daughters. There's no way to "cure" autism, because there's nothing to cure: it's just a way to describe a way that some people are. (Though some associated conditions, such as difficulty focusing can be treated with medication (I'd recommend not putting kids on ADHD drugs, because it's hard to distinguish between a genuine problem with cognition and mere excitable boredom from the outside.), others (e.g. hypermobility, coordination issues) can be mitigated with physiotherapy, and yet others (e.g. social anxiety, miscalibrated hunger / thirst detectors) can be alleviated with explanation, strategies, and practice.) A good part of the differences in "severity" of their "autism symptoms" will be the extent to which they grok the things in question. For example, if you're not interested in verbal communication, you're not going to study it intensely to pick up on how other people instinctively behave, so you won't learn to imitate it. No amount of wanting what verbal communication can get you will give you the intrinsic motivation you need for (years of) extended, generalisable study – at least, not unless you happen to be good at long-chain motivation. If, however, there's a fun game you like, and playing that game involves developing proficiency in the (inherently boring) skill… well, there's a reason so many kids learn English by playing competitive video games.
    - munksbeer 2y ago
      Would it be ok to ask how you're knowledgeable about this? We have a four year old (almost five), who we think exhibits many of the traits associated with autism and/or ADHD. Since day 0 of his life, he has been "difficult". He could not breast feed. He screamed more than other babies. Loud sounds, any cold sensations, etc all bothered him extremely. We couldn't really live a normal life because he cried so much, all the time, everywhere. He still can't walk on cold floors barefoot. He is extremely emotional and volatile. The slightest thing that doesn't go according to plan will result in a hyper-ventillating breakdown. He is angry all the time. He has an obsessive need for answers and will not accept "we don't know". He has poor gross and micro motor skills. He can't ride a bike and we struggle to help him learn because if he does not get something immediately, then the extreme anger and breakdown occurs. His writing is poor. However, on the other side, he can be exceptionally caring. He loves his close and extended family. He loves sitting on laps, chatting away. He can communicate well, no issues talking. In fact, he never shuts up and will always be wanting to communicate about something. This actually causes problems because he cannot help interrupting and cannot wait. He sleeps very well, far more easily than average. So it is difficult for us. We're trying to get him seen and potentially diagnosed, so that we can hopefully learn strategies to help him live a happier life. But because he isn't "typically and obviously autistic" we're not getting a lot of traction to even get him seen. (This is just a rough summary, there are more behaviours we're concerned about)
abj 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- tail_exchange 2y ago
  As a word of caution to the readers: the Children's Health Defense is a group known for antivax, water fluoridation, and 5g disinformation.
resoluteteeth 2y ago
One theory about autism is that it's caused by some sort of problem in synaptic pruning early in development. I don't think there's actually that much evidence for this theory, but if it is in fact caused by something like that, there could perhaps be a high degree of randomness in terms of how it affects different areas of the brain.

mikebrave 2y ago

It was my understanding that Autism was more or less that the neurons in the brain expanded further than they could support and the parts that weren't supported atrophied, kinda like a tree that overgrew, think what happens to a fruit tree that isn't pruned. Everyone's brain does some growth and pruning as needed, but something happens with autism that more or less it goes too far and then the parts that atrophy are less controlled than an average brain. This is why savants etc. This process could express completely different in people that were more or less the same genetically, just one day in a womb where they got different amounts of nutrition could cause differences to manifest, then a lifetime of small differences would further manifest differently.

burnte 2y ago

There's genetics, but then there's gene expression which is affected by the world, so they clearly grew differently.

djhope99 2y ago
Thank you this is helpful. The genetic part makes sense to me, my wife has PCOS and they have a history of ovarian problems in their family. There are studies linking PCOS and autism and to high levels of testosterone. The mystery to me was why they are so different.
- burnte 2y ago
  Yep, for decades thought genes were everything, then we started to realize epigenetics and proteomics are even more important. DNA is the code, and as we all know code can run differently in different environments.
- wizzwizz4 2y ago
  Those studies were designed to confirm Professor Sir Simon Baron-Cohen's "extreme male brain" theory (which, by the way, is a crock of shit). High androgen levels and high oestrogen levels are associated with autism (ref: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-019-0454-9 https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-019-0454-9) and there's no reason to believe the arrow of causality points in any particular direction. I recommend you not focus overmuch on why your kids are autistic. (The most likely reason is that one or both of the biological parents are autistic.) Disabilities are contextual, and autism can be a significant disability if you want to "live a normal life", so the best approach is not to impose arbitrary constraints and unrealistic expectations on them. (And really, who wants to keep up with the Joneses, anyway? https://xkcd.com/308/ https://xkcd.com/308/) If you're interested in the topic generally, by all means learn about it, but none of this will help your daughters. There's no way to "cure" autism, because there's nothing to cure: it's just a way to describe a way that some people are. (Though some associated conditions, such as difficulty focusing can be treated with medication (I'd recommend not putting kids on ADHD drugs, because it's hard to distinguish between a genuine problem with cognition and mere excitable boredom from the outside.), others (e.g. hypermobility, coordination issues) can be mitigated with physiotherapy, and yet others (e.g. social anxiety, miscalibrated hunger / thirst detectors) can be alleviated with explanation, strategies, and practice.) A good part of the differences in "severity" of their "autism symptoms" will be the extent to which they grok the things in question. For example, if you're not interested in verbal communication, you're not going to study it intensely to pick up on how other people instinctively behave, so you won't learn to imitate it. No amount of wanting what verbal communication can get you will give you the intrinsic motivation you need for (years of) extended, generalisable study – at least, not unless you happen to be good at long-chain motivation. If, however, there's a fun game you like, and playing that game involves developing proficiency in the (inherently boring) skill… well, there's a reason so many kids learn English by playing competitive video games.
  - munksbeer 2y ago
    Would it be ok to ask how you're knowledgeable about this? We have a four year old (almost five), who we think exhibits many of the traits associated with autism and/or ADHD. Since day 0 of his life, he has been "difficult". He could not breast feed. He screamed more than other babies. Loud sounds, any cold sensations, etc all bothered him extremely. We couldn't really live a normal life because he cried so much, all the time, everywhere. He still can't walk on cold floors barefoot. He is extremely emotional and volatile. The slightest thing that doesn't go according to plan will result in a hyper-ventillating breakdown. He is angry all the time. He has an obsessive need for answers and will not accept "we don't know". He has poor gross and micro motor skills. He can't ride a bike and we struggle to help him learn because if he does not get something immediately, then the extreme anger and breakdown occurs. His writing is poor. However, on the other side, he can be exceptionally caring. He loves his close and extended family. He loves sitting on laps, chatting away. He can communicate well, no issues talking. In fact, he never shuts up and will always be wanting to communicate about something. This actually causes problems because he cannot help interrupting and cannot wait. He sleeps very well, far more easily than average. So it is difficult for us. We're trying to get him seen and potentially diagnosed, so that we can hopefully learn strategies to help him live a happier life. But because he isn't "typically and obviously autistic" we're not getting a lot of traction to even get him seen. (This is just a rough summary, there are more behaviours we're concerned about)

abj 2y ago

[flagged]

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
tail_exchange 2y ago
As a word of caution to the readers: the Children's Health Defense is a group known for antivax, water fluoridation, and 5g disinformation.

resoluteteeth 2y ago

One theory about autism is that it's caused by some sort of problem in synaptic pruning early in development. I don't think there's actually that much evidence for this theory, but if it is in fact caused by something like that, there could perhaps be a high degree of randomness in terms of how it affects different areas of the brain.