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Random things like cancer and genetic diseases happen, but an awful lot of disease is caused by personal choice. Drinking, smoking, unhealthy lifestyle, etc. Pe

Random things like cancer and genetic diseases happen, but an awful lot of disease is caused by personal choice. Drinking, smoking, unhealthy lifestyle, etc. Personal behaviors are the cause of a huge portion of our healthcare costs. I feel the same way about the recent auto insurance increases being caused by the shopping behaviors of others. Expensive EVs get completely totaled in accidents, and now everyone has to share in these high costs brought on by the choices of others. The healthcare system is already one of the biggest line items for the US federal budget, yet you can see the largesse and inefficiency. Perhaps we should think very carefully about putting more money into it.

aaomidi 3y ago
It’s really amusing when tech people who have a full understanding of singletons and basic statistics always refer to themselves when making a broader statement about society. I always wonder why people seemingly can’t apply their experiences beyond themselves when they already do that day to day at work. A lot of “personal decisions” are consequences of society. Depending on where you are in society, you’re going to sometimes be forced to live an “unhealthy” life. Beyond that, most medical care are for older folks, so you’re likely not going to notice anything until you are older. The thing that bothers me with this personal choice thing is, our society basically expects there to always be poverty. Heck the rate of poverty across America has a “healthy” value that we aim to actually keep. Of course that same percentage is going to be leading a more unhealthy life. Eh, rant over.
- echelon 3y ago
  > I always wonder why people seemingly can’t apply their experiences beyond themselves I grew up lower middle class, and I didn't have it easy. I have no idea who my birth parents were. I had an abusive father. I was bullied and beaten relentlessly by the other children that didn't like on-the-spectrum kids. I didn't party like those that abused me, I withdrew into myself and turned that into hard work. So when I see people [1] wanting me to pay for their choices, I feel used. When I see people demanding way more than I take for myself. It's as if the people that caused my problems are now trying to ride on my back. Does that help lend perspective for how some people feel about calls to increase taxes to pay for this? This doesn't mean that I'm unkind, uncaring, or unsympathetic. I just don't think US healthcare or how it is utilized is efficient, and I don't think armchair posturing or giving money to bureaucrats, administrators, or anyone without skin in the game will make it better. edit: I removed the analogy and replaced it with a personal anecdote. [1] The comments and downvotes here are probably from wealthy / well-off people on HN
  - undersuit 3y ago
    Where's your proof the partying is causing it? Cleaning the house can be far more dangerous if you want to ask my un-sourced opinion. EDIT The person I replied to edited their post. I'm replying to the argument: >>> I always wonder why people seemingly can’t apply their experiences beyond themselves >An analogy: I wonder why my lack of partying has to pay for the partying of others.
  - trust_bt_verify 3y ago
    What are they demanding that you are not? Everyone wants to be healthy and they want a medical system which helps them get there. If partying is a problem, they should be able to talk to a doctor about it, and it should be paid for as a part of the services provided by society.
    - echelon 3y ago
      > If partying is a problem, they should be able to talk to a doctor about it, and it should be paid for as a part of the services provided by society. I feel like I'm on an alien planet here. We should pay for people to get lifestyle advice? This is malinvestment. Put that money into research instead.
      - foldr 3y ago
        Paying for people to get lifestyle advice is a great investment as it reduces both the cost of their healthcare and various externalities associated with living in a society where lots of people are unhealthy.
        echelon 3y ago
        How much does that cost? Edit: Why should we pay for this instead of food insecurity, education, research, etc.? Will measured outcomes give us bang for the buck?
        foldr 3y ago
simonbarker87 3y ago
But you’re already paying for other people’s illnesses through insurance with the downside of layers of middlemen taking a profit. At least here in the UK an emergency or cancer won’t bankrupt me, for the rest of it I can choose to get private health insurance if I like or wait for the NHS to work through the queue (which is sadly becoming increasingly common as our government is obsessed with copying what America does).
- lostmsu 3y ago
  In the US it is not a necessity. There are private insurance plans with entry restrictions (e. g. you are ineligible if you smoke)
  - iraqmtpizza 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - simonbarker87 3y ago
    Sure but you’re still paying for people’s poor health. Insurance administration costs, charging insured patients more to cover uncovered patient costs, increased equipment costs due to increasing demand from an increasingly unhealthy population, high doctors salaries because of skills shortages, the list goes on. There is simply no way to isolate yourself from the cost of other people’s health choices. A fully privatised system gives the illusion of choice and isolation.
bbor 3y ago
I promise you, the productivity gains we’ve already gained in your lifetime outweigh any possible impact people might have by eating unhealthily. You can always argue “yeah but we could be bigger and more dominant!!” but at what point does that hit diminishing returns, life-philosophy wise?
jraph 3y ago
> Drinking, smoking, unhealthy lifestyle Make those things expensive and subsidize the health system. And of course don't push people into these things in the first place. The smoking industry for instance should have never been allowed to be that powerful (and maybe smoking would not be such a good thing). Also make the healthier alternatives cheaper (e.g. healthy food should be cheaper than junk food). This way, you mostly solve the problem by making people with unhealthy choices fund the heath system they therefore need. But in any case you can't really think individually: those people with unhealthy lifestyles have probably been collectively making your life better by being part of the society on which you depend for pretty much everything. Who knows, maybe someone you saved by subsidizing their cure will save you from a bus accident tomorrow. It's complex.

aaomidi 3y ago

It’s really amusing when tech people who have a full understanding of singletons and basic statistics always refer to themselves when making a broader statement about society. I always wonder why people seemingly can’t apply their experiences beyond themselves when they already do that day to day at work. A lot of “personal decisions” are consequences of society. Depending on where you are in society, you’re going to sometimes be forced to live an “unhealthy” life. Beyond that, most medical care are for older folks, so you’re likely not going to notice anything until you are older. The thing that bothers me with this personal choice thing is, our society basically expects there to always be poverty. Heck the rate of poverty across America has a “healthy” value that we aim to actually keep. Of course that same percentage is going to be leading a more unhealthy life. Eh, rant over.

echelon 3y ago
> I always wonder why people seemingly can’t apply their experiences beyond themselves I grew up lower middle class, and I didn't have it easy. I have no idea who my birth parents were. I had an abusive father. I was bullied and beaten relentlessly by the other children that didn't like on-the-spectrum kids. I didn't party like those that abused me, I withdrew into myself and turned that into hard work. So when I see people [1] wanting me to pay for their choices, I feel used. When I see people demanding way more than I take for myself. It's as if the people that caused my problems are now trying to ride on my back. Does that help lend perspective for how some people feel about calls to increase taxes to pay for this? This doesn't mean that I'm unkind, uncaring, or unsympathetic. I just don't think US healthcare or how it is utilized is efficient, and I don't think armchair posturing or giving money to bureaucrats, administrators, or anyone without skin in the game will make it better. edit: I removed the analogy and replaced it with a personal anecdote. [1] The comments and downvotes here are probably from wealthy / well-off people on HN
- undersuit 3y ago
  Where's your proof the partying is causing it? Cleaning the house can be far more dangerous if you want to ask my un-sourced opinion. EDIT The person I replied to edited their post. I'm replying to the argument: >>> I always wonder why people seemingly can’t apply their experiences beyond themselves >An analogy: I wonder why my lack of partying has to pay for the partying of others.
- trust_bt_verify 3y ago
  What are they demanding that you are not? Everyone wants to be healthy and they want a medical system which helps them get there. If partying is a problem, they should be able to talk to a doctor about it, and it should be paid for as a part of the services provided by society.
  - echelon 3y ago
    > If partying is a problem, they should be able to talk to a doctor about it, and it should be paid for as a part of the services provided by society. I feel like I'm on an alien planet here. We should pay for people to get lifestyle advice? This is malinvestment. Put that money into research instead.
    - foldr 3y ago
      Paying for people to get lifestyle advice is a great investment as it reduces both the cost of their healthcare and various externalities associated with living in a society where lots of people are unhealthy.
      - echelon 3y ago
        How much does that cost? Edit: Why should we pay for this instead of food insecurity, education, research, etc.? Will measured outcomes give us bang for the buck?
        foldr 3y ago

simonbarker87 3y ago

But you’re already paying for other people’s illnesses through insurance with the downside of layers of middlemen taking a profit. At least here in the UK an emergency or cancer won’t bankrupt me, for the rest of it I can choose to get private health insurance if I like or wait for the NHS to work through the queue (which is sadly becoming increasingly common as our government is obsessed with copying what America does).

lostmsu 3y ago
In the US it is not a necessity. There are private insurance plans with entry restrictions (e. g. you are ineligible if you smoke)
- iraqmtpizza 3y ago
  [flagged]
- simonbarker87 3y ago
  Sure but you’re still paying for people’s poor health. Insurance administration costs, charging insured patients more to cover uncovered patient costs, increased equipment costs due to increasing demand from an increasingly unhealthy population, high doctors salaries because of skills shortages, the list goes on. There is simply no way to isolate yourself from the cost of other people’s health choices. A fully privatised system gives the illusion of choice and isolation.

bbor 3y ago

I promise you, the productivity gains we’ve already gained in your lifetime outweigh any possible impact people might have by eating unhealthily. You can always argue “yeah but we could be bigger and more dominant!!” but at what point does that hit diminishing returns, life-philosophy wise?

jraph 3y ago

> Drinking, smoking, unhealthy lifestyle Make those things expensive and subsidize the health system. And of course don't push people into these things in the first place. The smoking industry for instance should have never been allowed to be that powerful (and maybe smoking would not be such a good thing). Also make the healthier alternatives cheaper (e.g. healthy food should be cheaper than junk food). This way, you mostly solve the problem by making people with unhealthy choices fund the heath system they therefore need. But in any case you can't really think individually: those people with unhealthy lifestyles have probably been collectively making your life better by being part of the society on which you depend for pretty much everything. Who knows, maybe someone you saved by subsidizing their cure will save you from a bus accident tomorrow. It's complex.