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There are religious organizations that own hospitals. I was flabbergasted when I found out about this recently. My first thought was how they’ve got a perfect s

There are religious organizations that own hospitals. I was flabbergasted when I found out about this recently. My first thought was how they’ve got a perfect system to avoid all taxes. Edit: it seems like the typical derailment is happening when it comes to religion. The topic is about taxes. I mentioned taxes. Not if religious organizations should own hospitals.

nullindividual 2y ago
What's worse is they enforce their religious worldview at these hospitals, denying legal medical treatments based off of the largest human hoax and political control mechanism ever invented by man.
- rjzzleep 2y ago
  In Germany some of the best hospitals are Christian (catholic I believe, but may be wrong). The US is a really weird place.
  - wccrawford 2y ago
    There's a bunch of local hospitals that are all run by a religion, but so far as I know, it doesn't dictate what they will and won't do for patients. So while I'm sure there are some religious hospitals that deny treatment, it's not all of them. The US is a really, really big place. Our states are the size of many countries. I'm not surprised that there's incredibly diverse sets of circumstances here.
  - leipert 2y ago
    Ha. But it is weird as well in Germany, because the churches are not bound to the normal Labour law and can for example discriminate against gay folks without recourse. Which is even more ridiculous given that most of the funds for the catholic/protestant schools and hospitals are payed by the tax payer/health insurances.
  - nradov 2y ago
    The same is true in the US. Some of the best hospitals (and complete integrated health systems) are run by Christian churches. This is largely for historical reasons: decades ago, churches stepped in to deliver healthcare as part of their mission because governments and secular organizations weren't doing enough. Some of them do refuse to perform certain services, particularly certain women's reproductive services, on moral grounds. This can make it difficult for women in some areas to access care.
  - dumbo-octopus 2y ago
    Plenty of good Christian hospitals here too. I suspect the parent is referring specifically to abortions, there are other procedures that a Christian would be potentially unwilling to perform (sex change operations, for instance), but they tend to require an experienced surgeon specifically trained in that operation, which wouldn't be hired by the hospital due to not aligning with their mission (would you want the government to force you to hire a .NET developer when you're purely an embedded systems shop?). As for abortions in particular, if you are of the opinion that procedure would be murder, it would certainly be out of place for the government to force you to do it. How many folks who promote the government forcing doctors to do what they consider to be killing children would be okay with the government forcing them to kill another human in their day job?
throw0101c 2y ago
> There are religious organizations that own hospitals. I was flabbergasted when I found out about this recently. Why would you be surprised at this? In (e.g.) Christianity, caring for the poor and sick has been one of the central tenants since its inception, so why wouldn't formal institutions be organized doing so? Before the welfare state—which is a fairly recent invention—the largest organization would have been the Church (and its various religious orders: Dominicans, Franciscans, etc), which would have worked towards its three-fold mission of worshipping God, evangelizing, and serving the poor: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9m-pNsFPV0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9m-pNsFPV0 It can reasonably be argued that the very idea of taking care of the poor, etc, only came into Western civilization because of Christianity. As someone who presumably lives with-in Western civilization and adheres to its (general) values, you take the idea for granted, without perhaps examining where it/they came from: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_(Holland_book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_(Holland_book) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_Wor...
- iscrewyou 2y ago
  Great points. But you missed the mark. The discussion is about taxes not if religions should own hospitals. The same poor people you mention have to pay taxes while the religious organizations get special cuts. If we are blind to how profitable and mutually beneficial relationships hospitals and insurance companies have, there is nothing else to discuss.
  - throw0101c 2y ago
    > The discussion is about taxes not if religions should own hospitals. This sub-thread is, as I was commenting on: > There are religious organizations that own hospitals. I was flabbergasted when I found out about this recently.
- tialaramex 2y ago
  > It can reasonably be argued that the very idea of taking care of the poor, etc, only came into Western civilization because of Christianity. You can try that argument but it's not very convincing. I think you could do equally well arguing that slavery is the fault of Christianity, or warfare or various other things humans have sometimes done and sometimes not done... The ancient Greeks (so, significantly before Christianity and also influential for "Western civilization") have a whole bunch of goddesses representing the idea of specific kinds of being nice to others. Plutarch is like "Philanthropy is a good idea".
spaer 2y ago
Hospitals were invented by religious organizations. It’s not strictly going to be driven by tax avoidance

nullindividual 2y ago

What's worse is they enforce their religious worldview at these hospitals, denying legal medical treatments based off of the largest human hoax and political control mechanism ever invented by man.

rjzzleep 2y ago
In Germany some of the best hospitals are Christian (catholic I believe, but may be wrong). The US is a really weird place.
- wccrawford 2y ago
  There's a bunch of local hospitals that are all run by a religion, but so far as I know, it doesn't dictate what they will and won't do for patients. So while I'm sure there are some religious hospitals that deny treatment, it's not all of them. The US is a really, really big place. Our states are the size of many countries. I'm not surprised that there's incredibly diverse sets of circumstances here.
- leipert 2y ago
  Ha. But it is weird as well in Germany, because the churches are not bound to the normal Labour law and can for example discriminate against gay folks without recourse. Which is even more ridiculous given that most of the funds for the catholic/protestant schools and hospitals are payed by the tax payer/health insurances.
- nradov 2y ago
  The same is true in the US. Some of the best hospitals (and complete integrated health systems) are run by Christian churches. This is largely for historical reasons: decades ago, churches stepped in to deliver healthcare as part of their mission because governments and secular organizations weren't doing enough. Some of them do refuse to perform certain services, particularly certain women's reproductive services, on moral grounds. This can make it difficult for women in some areas to access care.
- dumbo-octopus 2y ago
  Plenty of good Christian hospitals here too. I suspect the parent is referring specifically to abortions, there are other procedures that a Christian would be potentially unwilling to perform (sex change operations, for instance), but they tend to require an experienced surgeon specifically trained in that operation, which wouldn't be hired by the hospital due to not aligning with their mission (would you want the government to force you to hire a .NET developer when you're purely an embedded systems shop?). As for abortions in particular, if you are of the opinion that procedure would be murder, it would certainly be out of place for the government to force you to do it. How many folks who promote the government forcing doctors to do what they consider to be killing children would be okay with the government forcing them to kill another human in their day job?

throw0101c 2y ago

> There are religious organizations that own hospitals. I was flabbergasted when I found out about this recently. Why would you be surprised at this? In (e.g.) Christianity, caring for the poor and sick has been one of the central tenants since its inception, so why wouldn't formal institutions be organized doing so? Before the welfare state—which is a fairly recent invention—the largest organization would have been the Church (and its various religious orders: Dominicans, Franciscans, etc), which would have worked towards its three-fold mission of worshipping God, evangelizing, and serving the poor: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9m-pNsFPV0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9m-pNsFPV0 It can reasonably be argued that the very idea of taking care of the poor, etc, only came into Western civilization because of Christianity. As someone who presumably lives with-in Western civilization and adheres to its (general) values, you take the idea for granted, without perhaps examining where it/they came from: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_(Holland_book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_(Holland_book) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_Wor...

iscrewyou 2y ago
Great points. But you missed the mark. The discussion is about taxes not if religions should own hospitals. The same poor people you mention have to pay taxes while the religious organizations get special cuts. If we are blind to how profitable and mutually beneficial relationships hospitals and insurance companies have, there is nothing else to discuss.
- throw0101c 2y ago
  > The discussion is about taxes not if religions should own hospitals. This sub-thread is, as I was commenting on: > There are religious organizations that own hospitals. I was flabbergasted when I found out about this recently.
tialaramex 2y ago
> It can reasonably be argued that the very idea of taking care of the poor, etc, only came into Western civilization because of Christianity. You can try that argument but it's not very convincing. I think you could do equally well arguing that slavery is the fault of Christianity, or warfare or various other things humans have sometimes done and sometimes not done... The ancient Greeks (so, significantly before Christianity and also influential for "Western civilization") have a whole bunch of goddesses representing the idea of specific kinds of being nice to others. Plutarch is like "Philanthropy is a good idea".

spaer 2y ago

Hospitals were invented by religious organizations. It’s not strictly going to be driven by tax avoidance