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> There's so much personal development you can do without participating in the materialistic rat race. That takes money, although in a different form: time. I

by dakiol 3y ago

> There's so much personal development you can do without participating in the materialistic rat race. That takes money, although in a different form: time. I can only enjoy those experiences if I have time for them (and I’m not talking about enjoying them after working 8h during the day, because I end up exhausted and cannot enjoy anything at all). So, in order to enjoy things I need to work less, which means less money. That’s the price. It’s always money

goodpoint 3y ago
> That takes money, although in a different form: time > That’s the price. It’s always money Tell that to unemployed people. To children. To retired people. To people with serious sickness. Time is not money.
- dartos 3y ago
  It isn’t, but it has similar uses. With more money you have more time. not needing to wait in line at a check cashing or payday loan office, not needing to wait in the ER because you can’t afford primary care, not needing to get your car fixed every year because you can afford one with fewer miles. There’s a lot of hidden time costs if you’re not well off.
  - magicpin 3y ago
    Hell just the time sink of using a laundromat with defective machines vs filling up your own machine and moving over loads when it’s convenient for you
    - dartos 3y ago
      Wow yes exactly this. Didn’t even think about laundromats
  - goodpoint 3y ago
    > There’s a lot of hidden time costs if you’re not well off. Of course and that's my point.
hereonout2 3y ago
This is true for almost all of us though? Nearly everyone has to work at least 5x 8 hour days a week - some much more. Some have complex family needs that must be attended to before any personal time can even be considered. There is always some time though, it just needs to be made and scheduled and worked on. We can choose to veg out in front of Netflix, or doom scroll, or peruse hacker news, but we can also choose to do something else possibly more fulfilling. Of course not as good as having more disposable money and fewer work commitments but painting it as an all or nothing situation feels very defeatist.
- vundercind 3y ago
  Staring at screens all day is weirdly taxing. My wife used to have a much harder job than mine. Social, active, moving around, thinking on her feet, lots of prep, high stakes sometimes, somewhat abusive environment. She left it for WFH and a non-programming computer-heavy office job. After a couple weeks, one day she said to me, “Now I understand why you’re so worn-out after work hours” I’ve felt a lot more refreshed and ready to do stuff after working physical jobs or (especially) lightly-physical jobs that involve little or no computer use, than after a day of cushy office work. It’s not the sitting. Standing desks and walking breaks don’t help much. Computer work is just bizarrely draining.
  - pokerface_86 3y ago
    [dead]
  - hesviiggvv 3y ago
    Computer work is so far outside the realm of what we as humans have been doing as “work” since the dawn of time. I wonder how significant that is? Could we be evolutionarily or culturally ill-suited to working this way?
    - Kubrick2001 3y ago
      Yes
  - 3y ago
afpx 3y ago
In 1999, I started my first job out of college with a salary of $30,000 per year. I spent most of the day coding in a cubicle. It was analytically satisfying but not what I truly wanted to do. It was also quite stressful, and the hours were long. I had chosen computer science because I was moderately good at it, and I hoped it would help me pay off my $50,000 in college loans. In my first week of work, I realized I needed to find a way out. I had a hunch that the path I was on would not end well. I found an online group of people with similar thoughts. They were into "simple living," inspired by a book called "Your Money or Your Life." After reading it, I created a spreadsheet and started plotting numbers. I calculated that by continuously reducing my expenses and saving everything beyond a minimal lifestyle, and investing it in index funds, I could reach a point where my investments matched my spending. For the next 25 years, I kept reducing my spending and invested the surplus into the S&P 500. At the time, that was considered a very aggressive move, as a more conservative strategy was recommended. But, I decided to give it a try. I forwent a consumer lifestyle. I didn't travel much and spent most of my free time reading. When I eventually started a family, I devoted time to them. I had to put on blinders, though. The cars, houses, lavish vacations, fancy dining, clothes, gadgets—I ignored all that. I bought houses in the poorest neighborhoods and fixed them up. I drove the cheapest cars that were reliable. I adopted a simple wardrobe. I bought second hand. I figured out how to make nutritious, delicious meals from the least expensive ingredients. Often, I felt like I was missing out compared to my peers, especially as wages in the industry grew. But, I endured and stuck to the plan. These days, this movement seems to have evolved into FI/RE. Although it's not quite the same, it probably has similar goals. I saw a few people make huge payoffs from startups and IPOs, so I tried that too. But it was terrible for my mental health, and I quickly learned that the board and the CEO were not on the side of the common worker—they had no intention of sharing their payouts. I worked for four failed startups with some more steady work in between. In hindsight, I don't recommend it. It wasn't worth it. I made less money than my peers, and I put too much of myself into the products I helped build. In the end, only those with money made more money. The rest of us got shafted. But the moral of the story is, if you have 25 years, you might also be able to do it. Times have changed, though. But there's still probably an intersection point. The opportunities are greater than they ever have been. Given today's wages, I could have probably reached my goals 10 years earlier. The transition to retiring early wasn't without its pains. I hadn't fully envisioned a future, and when I finally met my goals, I realized time had changed. In the years that followed, I experienced significant anguish because the dreams I once had (becoming an artist, going into academia) were no longer realistic. I needed over two years just to recover from burnout. But now, I'm finally somewhat satisfied but still quite lost and with anxiety. But, I feel the best I've felt since my 20s, and things get better every day.
mlyle 3y ago
It kind of comes down to money, but... My wife and I work as teachers now after successful paths in tech. I do some consulting, choosing the most interesting problems instead of money. We seek fulfillment and meaning and personal growth instead of papering over suck buying nice things. Of course, having a big pile of capital as a backup makes this a lot safer to do.
jwells89 3y ago
This exactly. I’d love to not have to work for a living so I could spend my days tinkering on projects, drawing, learning an instrument, etc. There’s so much to learn and resources to do so have never been more abundant or readily available. There’s enough to keep a person busy for several lifetimes. But that requires money. A lot of it, if that’s what I want to do from today in my mid-30s onward. I’m already doing some of this in my spare time and I’m grateful for the ability and opportunity to do so — having come from a poor background it’s absolutely not taken for granted — but having to work to live means everything else is pushed off into the margins with whatever energy and passion is leftover. I want to be able to get obsessed with and lost in whatever I’m pursuing like I did as a teenager, and that’s not feasible as long as a job is commanding most of my waking productive hours.

by dakiol 3y ago

goodpoint 3y ago

> That takes money, although in a different form: time > That’s the price. It’s always money Tell that to unemployed people. To children. To retired people. To people with serious sickness. Time is not money.

dartos 3y ago
It isn’t, but it has similar uses. With more money you have more time. not needing to wait in line at a check cashing or payday loan office, not needing to wait in the ER because you can’t afford primary care, not needing to get your car fixed every year because you can afford one with fewer miles. There’s a lot of hidden time costs if you’re not well off.
- magicpin 3y ago
  Hell just the time sink of using a laundromat with defective machines vs filling up your own machine and moving over loads when it’s convenient for you
  - dartos 3y ago
    Wow yes exactly this. Didn’t even think about laundromats
- goodpoint 3y ago
  > There’s a lot of hidden time costs if you’re not well off. Of course and that's my point.

hereonout2 3y ago

This is true for almost all of us though? Nearly everyone has to work at least 5x 8 hour days a week - some much more. Some have complex family needs that must be attended to before any personal time can even be considered. There is always some time though, it just needs to be made and scheduled and worked on. We can choose to veg out in front of Netflix, or doom scroll, or peruse hacker news, but we can also choose to do something else possibly more fulfilling. Of course not as good as having more disposable money and fewer work commitments but painting it as an all or nothing situation feels very defeatist.

vundercind 3y ago
Staring at screens all day is weirdly taxing. My wife used to have a much harder job than mine. Social, active, moving around, thinking on her feet, lots of prep, high stakes sometimes, somewhat abusive environment. She left it for WFH and a non-programming computer-heavy office job. After a couple weeks, one day she said to me, “Now I understand why you’re so worn-out after work hours” I’ve felt a lot more refreshed and ready to do stuff after working physical jobs or (especially) lightly-physical jobs that involve little or no computer use, than after a day of cushy office work. It’s not the sitting. Standing desks and walking breaks don’t help much. Computer work is just bizarrely draining.
- pokerface_86 3y ago
  [dead]
- hesviiggvv 3y ago
  Computer work is so far outside the realm of what we as humans have been doing as “work” since the dawn of time. I wonder how significant that is? Could we be evolutionarily or culturally ill-suited to working this way?
  - Kubrick2001 3y ago
    Yes
- 3y ago

afpx 3y ago

In 1999, I started my first job out of college with a salary of $30,000 per year. I spent most of the day coding in a cubicle. It was analytically satisfying but not what I truly wanted to do. It was also quite stressful, and the hours were long. I had chosen computer science because I was moderately good at it, and I hoped it would help me pay off my $50,000 in college loans. In my first week of work, I realized I needed to find a way out. I had a hunch that the path I was on would not end well. I found an online group of people with similar thoughts. They were into "simple living," inspired by a book called "Your Money or Your Life." After reading it, I created a spreadsheet and started plotting numbers. I calculated that by continuously reducing my expenses and saving everything beyond a minimal lifestyle, and investing it in index funds, I could reach a point where my investments matched my spending. For the next 25 years, I kept reducing my spending and invested the surplus into the S&P 500. At the time, that was considered a very aggressive move, as a more conservative strategy was recommended. But, I decided to give it a try. I forwent a consumer lifestyle. I didn't travel much and spent most of my free time reading. When I eventually started a family, I devoted time to them. I had to put on blinders, though. The cars, houses, lavish vacations, fancy dining, clothes, gadgets—I ignored all that. I bought houses in the poorest neighborhoods and fixed them up. I drove the cheapest cars that were reliable. I adopted a simple wardrobe. I bought second hand. I figured out how to make nutritious, delicious meals from the least expensive ingredients. Often, I felt like I was missing out compared to my peers, especially as wages in the industry grew. But, I endured and stuck to the plan. These days, this movement seems to have evolved into FI/RE. Although it's not quite the same, it probably has similar goals. I saw a few people make huge payoffs from startups and IPOs, so I tried that too. But it was terrible for my mental health, and I quickly learned that the board and the CEO were not on the side of the common worker—they had no intention of sharing their payouts. I worked for four failed startups with some more steady work in between. In hindsight, I don't recommend it. It wasn't worth it. I made less money than my peers, and I put too much of myself into the products I helped build. In the end, only those with money made more money. The rest of us got shafted. But the moral of the story is, if you have 25 years, you might also be able to do it. Times have changed, though. But there's still probably an intersection point. The opportunities are greater than they ever have been. Given today's wages, I could have probably reached my goals 10 years earlier. The transition to retiring early wasn't without its pains. I hadn't fully envisioned a future, and when I finally met my goals, I realized time had changed. In the years that followed, I experienced significant anguish because the dreams I once had (becoming an artist, going into academia) were no longer realistic. I needed over two years just to recover from burnout. But now, I'm finally somewhat satisfied but still quite lost and with anxiety. But, I feel the best I've felt since my 20s, and things get better every day.

mlyle 3y ago

It kind of comes down to money, but... My wife and I work as teachers now after successful paths in tech. I do some consulting, choosing the most interesting problems instead of money. We seek fulfillment and meaning and personal growth instead of papering over suck buying nice things. Of course, having a big pile of capital as a backup makes this a lot safer to do.

jwells89 3y ago

This exactly. I’d love to not have to work for a living so I could spend my days tinkering on projects, drawing, learning an instrument, etc. There’s so much to learn and resources to do so have never been more abundant or readily available. There’s enough to keep a person busy for several lifetimes. But that requires money. A lot of it, if that’s what I want to do from today in my mid-30s onward. I’m already doing some of this in my spare time and I’m grateful for the ability and opportunity to do so — having come from a poor background it’s absolutely not taken for granted — but having to work to live means everything else is pushed off into the margins with whatever energy and passion is leftover. I want to be able to get obsessed with and lost in whatever I’m pursuing like I did as a teenager, and that’s not feasible as long as a job is commanding most of my waking productive hours.