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350 tons of of chocolate and wine arrive on world’s largest cargo sailboat
- tocs3 3y agoI have wondered a lot bout using sail for shipping. If you are the shipper and you enjoy he sailing it seems like it could be a good idea. Just a way to pay for a lifestyle not a way to make boatloads of money. It would not make much of a dent in traditions shipping but more of a way to live a nice life.
- solarpunk 3y agoall in all it's gotta be cheaper to ship time-insensitive things via a vehicle that consumes no fuel. I'm curious if they can turn around and monetize their lack of emissions thru some kind of carbon markets or whatnot
- tempay 3y agoOnly if staffing and maintenance costs are low enough.
- chongli 3y agoThe fuel burned by container ships is literally the sludge left at the bottom of the distillation vessel after all of the lighter petroleum fuels have been removed for sale. It is incredibly cheap fuel, extremely energy dense, but unbelievably dirty stuff. Unfortunately, these ships only burn the nasty fuel in international waters so the process of getting them to pay for emissions would have to go through international maritime law, specifically MARPOL [1]. If you want an idea of how difficult that would be, check out the implementation and enforcement section of that page. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARPOL_73/78 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARPOL_73/78
- dylan604 3y agoI'm envisioning a Coast Guard cutter type boat in the middle of the vast ocean trying to pull over a ship to issue a ticket. Of course, it's all in the style of a cartoon in my mind to compensate for the farcical nature of trying to police the open ocean
- dr_dshiv 3y agoThe dirtiness of the fuel has certain environmental benefits, namely the production of low marine clouds. These were offsetting the warming impact of shipping by about a third. https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/marine-clouds-climate-change-1.7016498 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/marine-clouds-climate-change...
- toast0 3y agoThe crew consumes fuel. A large sailing vessel and a large container ship probably require a similar number of crew. Labor cost per ton will be huge.
- konschubert 3y agoYou have to beat 4K for a shipping container from Asia to the US. No way.
- playingalong 3y agoJust by reading the article the impression is that it's both faster and should be cheaper (?). I get that only some type of cargo would fit or would make sense to load like this. What are the downsides?
- moffkalast 3y agoMargins in the shipping industry are typically rather low and it's offset by scaling well with container ships of proportions only limited by the canals they must traverse. This ship is positively microscopic in comparison. I would imagine it's only cost effective for very specific types of cargo. There are hybrid options with flettner rotors and deployable kite sails for partial fuel savings on specific routes, but it's all rather experimental.
- inetknght 3y ago> I would imagine it's only cost effective for very specific types of cargo I imagine you're close to correct, but that some people might be willing to pay a premium for types of cargo that normally would not turn a profit. "Fine goods", as my local Specs puts it.
- fsckboy 3y agothe French could keep shipping mass produced crappy cars economically on big ships, and then small numbers of cars de luxe on these bougie ships, and advertise the... "car bon offsets".
- yawpitch 3y agoDoldrums. Hurricanes. Impulsively murdered albatrosses. Kraken. Also pirates, undead and otherwise. Really the list goes on.
- spudlyo 3y agoRum, sodomy, and the lash.
- kingkawn 3y agoI got to see this boat when it docked in Brooklyn last year. Pretty cool setup and actually seemed feasible for shipping some things at low environmental impact.
- NiggersofHN 3y ago[flagged]
- mentos 3y agoWith starlink we could see completely autonomous drone sailboats for shipping coming soon?
- chongli 3y agoHow would you secure them? Pirates have already begun to be a huge problem in particular political/economic hot spots around the world. Autonomous drone sailboats would be ripe plums just waiting to be plucked. I think one of the biggest issues is that these drones could ostensibly be jammed from beyond visual range and then disabled and captured during jamming. This would make it very difficult to detect the perpetrators via any sort of remote surveillance.
- zoklet-enjoyer 3y agoThere could be a convoy of drone ships, each with automated defensive system. The convoy would be patrolled by smaller/faster manned ships with security personnel looking out for pirates
- dylan604 3y agoOh, okay. So, instead of crewing the ship, you're crewing multiple ships to go along with the unmanned ship? The logic with some just eludes me
- datameta 3y agoOk but what if we dig deeper. What does an autonomous ship afford? The space and weight savings of having no human habitation (just mechanic/engineer access for equipment maintenance at dock) would be rather large. No need to maintain human-comfortable conditions, bring water and food for the voyage, no recreational areas, quarters, corridors, etc. In fact, the entire ship can be sealed and resealed at port so that if pirates board, they'd need plasma cutters. With no bridge, they'd need to hack the sheep instead of take over the crew.
- rdtsc 3y agoThis could work for luxury goods if the products and the associated marketing reflects it. It has to be on the label - “brought you by a sailboat across the Atlantic”. I could imagine someone paying a large markup for it just like they pay for fancy wine or jewelry. As long as everyone involved in the business understands it and doesn’t drink their own kool-aid, which often happens.
- evomassiny 3y agoThis is their second boat,and they already do exactly that. So far it's been quite successful
- newsclues 3y agoI always thought there was a market for fleets of smaller wind powered ships for car transportation especially with EVs. Plenty of opportunities with taxation to make this viable. But I think we run into the issue of why cargo was centralized in the first place.
- pimlottc 3y agoThey are definitely promoting it, there's a list of retailers [0] on their website for the goods they transport. 0: https://graindesail-overseas.com/search-retailers https://graindesail-overseas.com/search-retailers
- m3047 3y agoHere's an example: "Barrels of Jefferson’s Ocean Aged at Sea® Bourbon travel aboard ships that visit ports all around the globe. The constant motion of the sea churns the whiskey, increasing its interaction with the wood of the barrel." https://jeffersonsbourbon.com/jeffersons-ocean-bourbon/ https://jeffersonsbourbon.com/jeffersons-ocean-bourbon/
- hagbard_c 3y ago350 tons equals about 20 40ft containers at 18 tons cargo per container (usable capacity of ~67 m³) or 14 at 25 tons per container (maximum freight weight for a standard 40ft container) or 12 at 30 ton per container (maximum freight weight for 40ft reefer (cooling) containers). The average capacity for container ships traversing the oceans is around 5000 20ft containers (TEU) or 2500 40ft containers. That equates anything between 125 and 200 of these sailing ships for each average container ship. Most modern container ships are far larger at 12000 TEU capacity or more. While this looks like an interesting approach for the types of cargo which caters to people who are willing to pay a premium for having their product transported by sail power - this coffee/chocolate/... was made with single-origin beans/... harvested by ... and shipped on a modern clipper - it is not a feasible solution for normal container shipping. Other types of wind-powered propulsion exist which can be used to reduce the fuel consumption for cargo ships which probably are more efficient in reducing shipping emissions than having large fleets of these 'freight yachts' traverse the seas.
- fashion-nugget 3y ago[flagged]
- ungreased0675 3y agoI was a little sad to see that this is more eco-friendly performative than a serious attempt to disrupt the shipping industry. With advances in material science, meteorology, and automation, I’m hopeful cargo sailboats can make a comeback.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- reliablereason 3y agoIts not actually more eco friendly than placing the cargo on a container ship. The fuel cost for moving one container over the Atlantic on a big container ship is about 30$. A container takes 30 tons. So 12 containers could move that cargo for a fuel cost of 360$, the scale is unbeatable; both economically and environmentally. Things like this can only ever be a type of artistic thing rather than used for real shipping.
- evomassiny 3y agoHow is 360$ of fuel more eco-friendly than 0$ ? I don't get your argument
- reliablereason 3y agoJust cause it is a sailing vessel does not mean it does not have an engine. It probably uses a couple of 100 liters of disel to get in and out of port, driving generators and heating the boat. On top of that the sails will degrade with time and the ship will need to be repaired and there is allot more crew and manpower needed per unit of cargo. Everything has environmental cost in CO2 emissions, and the amount of useful work you get from a large container ship per amount CO2 emissions is insane. The only thing that can get you those kinds of numbers is scale.
- evomassiny 3y agoAccording to [0], a typical container ship generate 12.5 g of CO2 per ton per km, which means that one trip from France to NY with 350T of cargo would release about 35T of CO2 in the atmosphere. I'm convinced that this sail boat generates an order of magnitude less of that (I can't find any estimate of it) Whatever the initial CO2 cost of the construction of this boat is, I'm sure that it's a net benefits if it's used long enough [0]: https://www.ecsa.eu/sites/default/files/publications/2020%20CO2%20Performance%20of%20Shipping.pdf https://www.ecsa.eu/sites/default/files/publications/2020%20...
- hn_throwaway_99 3y agoThis is not a method by which carbon emissions can be significantly reduced. It is essentially a marketing ploy to provide an option for virtue signaling consumers to show that they get their luxury chocolates and wine by sailboat. I was going to start out this comment by saying "I don't mean to dump on well-intentioned entrepreneurs", but in all honesty I think I might. That is, at this point, anything that doesn't have at least a possible path to scaling up is just a simple sideshow, ignoring the massive changes that need to happen to get to a zero-carbon future. So this "use a little sailboat to ferry some expensive wine, coffee and chocolate across the ocean" may get good press (hence, the article) but it's not really a path to make any dent in our carbon dependency. I would contrast this with, for example, attempts to make "wind-assisted" cargo ships, e.g. https://www.offshore-energy.biz/worlds-1st-cargo-ship-equipped-with-wind-challenger-delivered/ https://www.offshore-energy.biz/worlds-1st-cargo-ship-equipp.... I'm not an engineer so I don't know if this approach will be scalable long term, but it's at least going in with an attempt to scale. I just feel at this point that virtue signaling luxury products (affordable to a tiny portion of the populace anyway) is just a net negative because it allows some people to pretend they're "doing good" for the environment.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- MuffinFlavored 3y ago> It is essentially a marketing ploy to provide an option for virtue signaling consumers to show that they get their luxury chocolates and wine by sailboat. How much more does it cost to get something delivered this way via the "bad for environment traditional way"?
- brabel 3y agoThe rich are responsible for a disproportionate amount of emissions. They fly more (often ridiculously more with their private jets), buy more, live in houses that take more energy than whole suburbs. If it becomes taboo for them to spend their fortunes on things that have high emissions and they're pressured to use this sort of innovative solution because of that, it may actually make a big difference. Also, what's your alternative? Shouldn't anyone do anything just because in the grand scheme of things, it won't make a dent?
- prmoustache 3y agoIt would make more sense to roast the cacao and make the fine chocolates in the countries where cacao is harvested if you ask me.
- danielharan 3y agoThe chocolate has to be shipped cool, requiring more energy. That said: more and more producing countries are doing initial processing (roasting and grinding into liquor), and derivatives (powder and butter). Processing cacao in North America means I have to pay to get rid of shell which could be brought back to farms. Hopefully one day I can buy good liquor.
- prmoustache 3y agoStill less energy than shipping left and right 3 times
- danielharan 3y agoIt's not clear that shipping the sugar to where the cacao is, then shipping refrigerated chocolate is any better than shipping unrefrigerated cacao mass to the North where it's milled with sugar. Especially if you look at grid emissions in all those countries. Transport uses energy, but so do milling, tempering and packaging.
- prmoustache 3y agoLooks to me like the same countries could provide sugar and cacao. The end result will always have to be shipped refrigerated anyway and is consumed pretty much worldwide so it doesn't look like a decisive factor, especially as it isn't a product that needs to be aged like say, a wine or a cheese. Once it is produced it is ready to ship, no long term storage needed.
- pasttense01 3y agoLess energy turns out to be a relatively minor consideration in the world; for example cost of labor is vastly more important.
- jylam 3y ago"Everything from Grain de Sail brand fine chocolates and organic coffee to cosmetic products, wine, and French fashion house luxury goods were on board." So luxury stuff that no one really needs to get from the other side of the world. There is nothing environmentally friendly about useless stuff shipped from a country 10.000km away. Cocoa and coffee obviously doesn't grow in France, so it already came for somewhere else very far away. Cosmetic products are either a scam or available locally, those are chemicals or plants that don't grow in France. “We must change our mindset to products that last longer and generate less pressure on the environment.” Yes, so no luxury goods across the oceans. More local stuff. That's textbook greenwashing. (full disclosure, I'm French, never seen a cocoa or coffee or cosmetic plant grow here)
- zer00eyz 3y agoYou think luxury goods are the problem? Theres 8 billion of us... Most of the population eats based on imports. China, a billion people, only produces 60 percent of its own food. Africa, large portions of the Middle East survive on imported grain. Hell what started out as aid to Nigeria is now a delicacy and part of the culture: stock fish. An African nation identifies part of its culture with a Norwegian export. This isnt a "rich" problem the system is fucked from tip to tail. EVERYTHING needs to change, and we can do that now and figure out a way that is "fair" or we can just wait till it's fucked, and then famine and war solve the problem.
- f154hfds 3y agoI was tracking with you till the last sentence - why is this bad? I tend to think it's a good thing that 40% of Chinese people (580 million people) aren't starving. Britain hasn't been able to feed itself from domestic agriculture for 200+ years, would you have their population halved so that they don't need food imports anymore? I don't understand.
- bmicraft 3y agoHasn't been able or hasn't been trying? I reeeaally doubt that the UK couldn't produce enough if they tried, they just don't because it is more expensive.
- agentultra 3y agoEveryone is always concerned about scale. But I sometimes wonder if we need to scale down. Are cargo ships full of essential goods or disposable items that will more likely than not enter a landfill without seeing any use at all? We’re really good at over producing items and goods that we don’t need or use. It’s interesting to see businesses try things like this. It might not be efficient or affordable now. But someone had to break ground and move the needle somewhere. There’s an interesting story in a similar vein behind the publishing of the card game, Earthborne Rangers. They wanted to print the game so that it was fully compostable. Save for the staples in the rulebook they succeeded despite industry veterans telling them it would be too expensive and not work. I’m glad they did it. I hope others will also try it.
- cloverich 3y agoThis is where carbon tax helps. Having to pay the true cost of goods helps everyone make better decisions. Maybe, hopefully, it also pushes the needle towards higher quality, more essential items and hence less waste. Yet, "make everything more expensive" is a challenging position to make progress on.
- basisword 3y agoDoesn’t this just drive up the cost for the people who are already struggling to afford these goods?
- thrance 3y agoIt does, but it is also supposed to bring up the hidden costs of buying things in their prices, so that greener products that would do less harm would be cheaper than more destructive goods. For example, a plane ticket might be cheaper than a train one for the same trip but it costs more to the community in the long term because of global warming.
- andrepd 3y agoAnd pollution. People forget that pollution is not just the fuzzy and far-off consequences of global warming, but also very real and immediate deaths and illnesses.
- throwaway2562 3y agoAs an experienced pirate, I vow to attack this vessel and take her sweet cargo for mine own, you may depend upon it.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- renewiltord 3y agoWe're so much faster these days than in the 1800s. That's pretty cool. Relatively fast boat!
- bewaretheirs 3y agoAnother recent case of cargo by sail that may be a bit more practical: ESA is now sending rocket subassemblies across the Atlantic (to their launch site in French Guyana) in a hybrid ship equipped with both sails and diesel; the linked article claims the sails reduce fuel consumption by 30%. https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Space_Transportation/Ariane/Shipping_rockets_Ariane_on_board https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Space_Transportation/Ar...
- euroderf 3y agoSailing ships continued to be economic into the 1930s, for certain cargoes and routes. See Eric Newby, "The Last Grain Race".
- graycat 3y agoOne explanation is an old one, MONEY. My understanding is that for a cargo ship of reasonable size, the diesel or black oil fuel to cross the Atlantic can be > $1 million. The wind? Free. And, with a well designed sailboat, the speed can be reasonably fast. And save on the purchase and maintenance costs of steam turbines and big diesel engines and their weight.
- imglorp 3y ago350 tons as compared to a heavy freighter with 50,000 or 100,000 tons cargo. By all means let's get more sail area these big guys and save that 30% fuel, yes.
- OJFord 3y agoI can't believe the answer to environmentally friendly wine and chocolate in New York, at least for the size of the market, is really to innovate on how to ship it from France..?! The coffee and cacao is presumably making its second Atlantic crossing too. And wait, coffee? What are they doing, just roasting it in France? And then it's at minimum 18 days stale by the time you buy it? That's not a premium good at all, and much less environmentally friendly than if it came directly from South America, roasted in New York or wherever. But then I guess you can't label it 'French Roast' or something stupid.
- npongratz 3y agoConfirmed in TFA: > The sailboat will also restock its coffee and cacao supply on its journey through the Caribbean. That supply is then brought back across the sea to France, where the coffee is roasted, and fine chocolates are produced. So, the commodities are taken from the Caribbean region, to France, and back across the Atlantic to NYC.
- arwineap 3y agoJust to be clear, this is a typical sail cargo route because of the prevailing / trade winds
- shepherdjerred 3y ago> And then it's at minimum 18 days stale by the time you buy it? You generally don't want to use freshly roasted coffee anyway. It ideally gets some time to de-gas. 18 days, though, is towards the tail end of what you'd want. https://fellowproducts.com/blogs/learn/understanding-degassing-is-fresh-best https://fellowproducts.com/blogs/learn/understanding-degassi...
- OJFord 3y agoSure, but something like mail order 'freshly roasted' within your local country accounts for that and you're good to go; if I come back to a bag that's 18d post-roast from holiday or something I'll definitely taste the difference from the 2-3d at which I'd typically receive it. (Not in a good way.) Paying the surely enormous premium for roasted-in-France and zero-emission-sailboat-delivered coffee in NYC just doesn't make any sense to me.
- tokai 3y agoIt is really small compared to the iron-hulled sailing cargo ships of the beginning of the last century. I can't find any information on the construction, but it seems like a converted pleasure vessel. Seems like a smart fit for their products. But feels more like good marketing than any kind of shipping innovation.
- ThinkBeat 3y agoThere is no reason to ship fermented grape juice in heavy glass bottles all around the world. All so that snobby people can buy wine with the right label and source, so they can pretend to themselves and others that is it all about the taste¹ This is a good place for some serious climate taxes. A small improvement would be to ship the wine in enormous "plastic bladders" on repurposed oil tankers. Then it can be poured into bottles at the destination. But wine can be made nearly anywhere. Even in the toilet (Pruno wine)² So you dont need a lot of expensive equipment. If grapes are an issue other fruits and veggies can be used. Every city should be able to produce lots of it, so buying local would be easy. ¹ https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-ta... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_wine_tasting#:~:text=Some%20blinded%20trials%20among%20wine,tasters%20to%20judge%20wines%20consistently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_wine_tasting#:~:text=Som.... ² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruno https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruno
- fashion-nugget 3y ago[flagged]