6 ms·

Researchers find a new organelle evolving

109 points by WithinReason 3y ago

im3w1l 3y ago
If nuclear dna is the source code then these cellular endosymbionts are similar to the attack in reflections on trusting trust. They are not part of the source code, but rather a self-perpetuating feature of the compiled binary.
- gumby 3y ago
  Literally encapsulation of your dependencies, which are provided as compiled modules. We can now call that "a tale as old as time".
OnACoffeeBreak 3y ago
This is fascinating. Can someone recommend a book that goes into similar depth as this article covering these types of symbiotic relationships? Examples I can think of are: - Organelles evolving from other living organisms as described in this article - Bacteria in and on our bodies - Fungal mycelium in relation to plants I am sure there are many more.
- gumby 3y ago
  I strongly recommend "The Tangled Tree: A Radical New History of Life" by David Quammen The old metaphor of a tree of life has completely broken down with crosslinks everywhere at all levels, far beyond what even Barbara McClintock wrote about. It's not completely true (but in the area what is "completely true") that only the mitochondria and chloroplasts are captures or symbionts. Flagella and cilia are examples of others! Though technically they aren't considered organelles. The book I mentioned above is really good! It doesn't simply talk about how current understanding has momved beyond the tree metaphor, it talks about how that came about, as well. Of course, being a book for the general public at talks a lot about the people involved too.
- tomkinstinch 3y ago
  I Contain Multitudes, by Ed Yong https://edyong.me/i-contain-multitudes https://edyong.me/i-contain-multitudes
- epsilonic 3y ago
  Entangled Life by Merlin Sheldrake discusses this topic in some detail with respect to Fungi.
adolph 3y ago
This is exciting. I chat rocket fuel with my child quite often and he is into hydrolox from water. The other big alternative is methane from atmospheric CO2, but separating N2 could result in fuel with a bigger bang.
- AlexAndScripts 3y ago
  Wrong post?
  - adolph 3y ago
    No, but maybe more context would help folks not reading the article: A "nitroplast" converts nitrogen from the air to a chemically useful form. Basically any energy store receives inputs and then performs controlled outputs. In the case of subterranean hydrocarbons that was solar from long ago (without prejudice against geothermogenic theories). How can we take inputs from solar, wind, water movement, geothermal or nuclear and store it optimally for a particular task? For most purposes various electrical charge or entropy change systems are sufficient. For purposes that require high energy density and high sustained release, chemical bond changes are optimal. Nitrogen is awesome for this purpose and so a biological process for storing solar energy in separated nitrogen bonds is exciting.
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process was originally developed for fertiliser, but instead we've often used it (or similar pathways) to make the rubble bounce.
  - adolph 3y ago
    Yes, and this StackEx post gets a response about ammonia that quotes Clark's Ignition: https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/22758/reasons-why-liquid-anhydrous-ammonia-fuel-chosen-for-the-x-15-has-it-been-used https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/22758/reasons-why-... AFAIK, IANAExpert, Haber process is very energy intensive and centralized. It would be helpful to crack the N2 in a more distributed manner and harvest the results and maybe in a more rocket friendly molecule than ammonia, like APCP feedstock. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_perchlorate_composite_propellant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_perchlorate_composite...
novia 3y ago
Can we force the evolution of nitrogen fixing organelles in plants like soybeans, which can already fix nitrogen through symbiosis, by knocking out a couple of genes in the nitrogen fixing bacteria to force it to become more reliant on its host?
- readyplayernull 3y ago
  I can see that being patented, sold only to those that can pay, nearby farms that get pollinated with the gene being sued, the patenting company getting into financial trouble, the gene being banned to protect interests in the name of nature. You know, the usual story: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/feb/12/monsanto-sues-farmers-seed-patents https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/feb/12/monsanto...
  - anticensor 3y ago
    It would not pass the non-obviousness criteria. Both gene editing and the existence of pre-existing organelle are prior art, and combining those would be obvious to anyone in the field.
    - rcxdude 2y ago
      You might not get the patent on the whole concept, but you can probably get many different patents on the details needed to make it work.
    - dmitrygr 3y ago
      yes...but one click purchasing got patented (by amazon), while purchasing existed and so did clicks...
    - ProjectArcturis 3y ago
      Creating a food crop plant that contains these organelles will be an incredible challenge. They will need to solve dozens of difficult technical problems. It is obviously non-obvious.
  - 3y ago

109 points by WithinReason 3y ago

If nuclear dna is the source code then these cellular endosymbionts are similar to the attack in reflections on trusting trust. They are not part of the source code, but rather a self-perpetuating feature of the compiled binary.

gumby 3y ago
Literally encapsulation of your dependencies, which are provided as compiled modules. We can now call that "a tale as old as time".

OnACoffeeBreak 3y ago

This is fascinating. Can someone recommend a book that goes into similar depth as this article covering these types of symbiotic relationships? Examples I can think of are: - Organelles evolving from other living organisms as described in this article - Bacteria in and on our bodies - Fungal mycelium in relation to plants I am sure there are many more.

gumby 3y ago
I strongly recommend "The Tangled Tree: A Radical New History of Life" by David Quammen The old metaphor of a tree of life has completely broken down with crosslinks everywhere at all levels, far beyond what even Barbara McClintock wrote about. It's not completely true (but in the area what is "completely true") that only the mitochondria and chloroplasts are captures or symbionts. Flagella and cilia are examples of others! Though technically they aren't considered organelles. The book I mentioned above is really good! It doesn't simply talk about how current understanding has momved beyond the tree metaphor, it talks about how that came about, as well. Of course, being a book for the general public at talks a lot about the people involved too.
tomkinstinch 3y ago
I Contain Multitudes, by Ed Yong https://edyong.me/i-contain-multitudes https://edyong.me/i-contain-multitudes
epsilonic 3y ago
Entangled Life by Merlin Sheldrake discusses this topic in some detail with respect to Fungi.

adolph 3y ago

This is exciting. I chat rocket fuel with my child quite often and he is into hydrolox from water. The other big alternative is methane from atmospheric CO2, but separating N2 could result in fuel with a bigger bang.

AlexAndScripts 3y ago
Wrong post?
- adolph 3y ago
  No, but maybe more context would help folks not reading the article: A "nitroplast" converts nitrogen from the air to a chemically useful form. Basically any energy store receives inputs and then performs controlled outputs. In the case of subterranean hydrocarbons that was solar from long ago (without prejudice against geothermogenic theories). How can we take inputs from solar, wind, water movement, geothermal or nuclear and store it optimally for a particular task? For most purposes various electrical charge or entropy change systems are sufficient. For purposes that require high energy density and high sustained release, chemical bond changes are optimal. Nitrogen is awesome for this purpose and so a biological process for storing solar energy in separated nitrogen bonds is exciting.
082349872349872 3y ago
The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process was originally developed for fertiliser, but instead we've often used it (or similar pathways) to make the rubble bounce.
- adolph 3y ago
  Yes, and this StackEx post gets a response about ammonia that quotes Clark's Ignition: https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/22758/reasons-why-liquid-anhydrous-ammonia-fuel-chosen-for-the-x-15-has-it-been-used https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/22758/reasons-why-... AFAIK, IANAExpert, Haber process is very energy intensive and centralized. It would be helpful to crack the N2 in a more distributed manner and harvest the results and maybe in a more rocket friendly molecule than ammonia, like APCP feedstock. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_perchlorate_composite_propellant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_perchlorate_composite...

novia 3y ago

Can we force the evolution of nitrogen fixing organelles in plants like soybeans, which can already fix nitrogen through symbiosis, by knocking out a couple of genes in the nitrogen fixing bacteria to force it to become more reliant on its host?

readyplayernull 3y ago
I can see that being patented, sold only to those that can pay, nearby farms that get pollinated with the gene being sued, the patenting company getting into financial trouble, the gene being banned to protect interests in the name of nature. You know, the usual story: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/feb/12/monsanto-sues-farmers-seed-patents https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/feb/12/monsanto...
- anticensor 3y ago
  It would not pass the non-obviousness criteria. Both gene editing and the existence of pre-existing organelle are prior art, and combining those would be obvious to anyone in the field.
  - rcxdude 2y ago
    You might not get the patent on the whole concept, but you can probably get many different patents on the details needed to make it work.
  - dmitrygr 3y ago
    yes...but one click purchasing got patented (by amazon), while purchasing existed and so did clicks...
  - ProjectArcturis 3y ago
    Creating a food crop plant that contains these organelles will be an incredible challenge. They will need to solve dozens of difficult technical problems. It is obviously non-obvious.
- 3y ago