4 ms·

Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level

Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level of attractiveness and therefore access to attention and sex. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, and professional athletes all experience social reward and/or social contexts to their work. Software engineering is interfacing with an unthinking, unfeeling machine for many hours a day. Furthermore, the whole point of the vast majority of software engineering is to sell loot boxes to kids to increase shareholder wealth for a pittance of the wealth created (or something not too different from that for at least 60% of companies). How many mainstream software companies are contributing to building a society that you yourself would like to live in? To put it bluntly, many bad parents abandoned their kids to the internet where they found solace. Software engineering is a natural extension of spending too much time using the internet and becoming curious how it works. Poor mental health is a function of unmet needs... not feeling attractive, not feeling like you are contributing to the world or society at large, not getting laid, not feeling loved, not feeling worthy of love. All of these represent unmet needs, and I think software engineers struggle with these things more than a significant number of other professions because they are frequently intrinsic to why people become software engineers in the first place, machines don't care how socially inept you are, patients, clients, and judges do.

tiznow 3y ago
It's weird, I've harped on a few of these points in conversations with others (usually when talking about "sexy careers", and why people don't hold coders in the same regard as doctors) but your words made me realize why I'm trying to become a developer. The dealing with the machine rather than people is something I'm willing to run with more than anything, right now. Not wholly a function of unmet needs, but addressing a specific change I'd like to make.
- onion2k 3y ago
  The dealing with the machine rather than people is something I'm willing to run with more than anything, right now. Software engineering is an incredibly people-focused career. You will need to be able to work with other devs, stakeholders, support, users.. everyone really. Going into a tech career thinking that it's somewhere you can avoid people is never going to work out well.
  - tiznow 3y ago
    I don't exactly think that. It's more like I would like to transpose more of my energy into fighting with a machine, and less into people, because my job is 90/10 dealing with execs and their bespoke, unmanageable concerns right now vs making something happen with technology. Could be a grass is greener thing. Maybe to current devs this comment looks crazy, I really wouldn't know yet. I enjoy working with people, actually. My current role is rapidly changing that.
  - upsuper 3y ago
    This is true, but I only learnt about it after many years into this career, and to be honest I don't enjoy it very much. I still enjoy working with machines more than people.
  - jahewson 3y ago
    Right but you can tell all those people “this idea is literally impossible, the machine cannot do it” and at least some of them will listen to you. Whereas in, say, government, people can just believe any stupid idea they want for an indefinite period of time. As you can tell, I’m great with people. :)
  - shiroiushi 3y ago
    This has not been my experience at all. I do see this in the management layers, even with team leads, but the typical IC engineer does NOT spend any significant time talking with stakeholders, support, or users. They do have to work with other devs, but even that is frequently over chat, and not as much in-person, though it depends on the particular people and the company culture. Yes, you really can go into a tech career and avoid talking to people much, much more than other careers. Just stay out of management if you don't like talking to people.
    - david-gpu 3y ago
      The least effective ICs I ever ran into were those who brooded in front of their PC without communicating adequately with others. As a result, they didn't understand the requirements, built stuff that didn't meet the team's needs, and generally wasted a ton of time on stuff that needed to be redone.
bxguff 3y ago
any person earnestly applying a nerd and jock mentality to adult life should find a nice patch of grass to touch and talk to more people
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  The words are shortcuts for larger more complex ideas about primary motivations and goals. Reward structures learned as children and maturing young adults are definitely going to influence, subconsciously or consciously, adult behavior and understandings about how the world works. Here is Paul Graham using the word "nerd" and talking about the greater more complex idea: https://paulgraham.com/nerds.html https://paulgraham.com/nerds.html
  - bxguff 3y ago
    I don't think goals and motivations are a monolith just for people who like computers, or STEM, or who socialize less in high school because 'they didn't want to play the popularity game'. this worldview is reductive, and wholly unaware how growing up is different for everybody. Just be aware before you judge people.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- Phiwise_ 3y ago
  Did you read more than the first sentence of this comment before replying? I'm up in the air on it but it deserves more discussion and less mental laziness than you're showing here.
mjr00 3y ago
> Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level of attractiveness and therefore access to attention and sex. This is just your perspective and, IMO, it's pretty warped. Software engineering is not a low-status position, even compared to doctors and lawyers. You aren't lacking in status or not having sex because you're a software engineer getting paid $200k/year instead of a doctor paid $200k/year. > Furthermore, the whole point of the vast majority of software engineering is to sell loot boxes to kids to increase shareholder wealth for a pittance of the wealth created (or something not too different from that for at least 60% of companies). Lawyers have to defend clients they know are guilty to help rapists and murderers walk free, and file IP lawsuits for patents they know are bullshit so that their client can siphon off a settlement from a large company, just because it's cheaper than a court battle. Lawyers have been widely (and unfairly!) regarded as one of the most despised professions since Shakespeare.[0] Professional atheletes have long been subject of the media debate over being paid "too much" compared to the value they bring to society. Even if they were broadly perceived as providing negative value to society, which I don't believe, software developers would not be unique. > To put it bluntly, many bad parents abandoned their kids to the internet where they found solace. Software engineering is a natural extension of spending too much time using the internet and becoming curious how it works. This is becoming less and less true. Many junior devs who were born post-2000 that I talk to never had a computer growing up other than their phone, and their first real experience with PCs came in high school and university. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let%27s_kill_all_the_lawyers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let%27s_kill_all_the_lawyers
- p_l 3y ago
  > This is just your perspective and, IMO, it's pretty warped. Software engineering is not a low-status position, even compared to doctors and lawyers. You aren't lacking in status or not having sex because you're a software engineer getting paid $200k/year instead of a doctor paid $200k/year. I find that it definitely points to a time period when someone entered maybe not workforce, but the "IT world" let's say. There was a time when programming in many places had definitely "unsexy" vibe among general population, with a lot of, well, painful "jokes", and all of that definitely set a "theme". fast forward a decade or so to 2010 and suddenly IT is no longer that place where only losers go.
a-french-anon 3y ago
Well said. I mean, I'd like to see a graph of "wizard" rate per profession, maybe even per country for curiosity matters. I'd bet my arm that programmers have it pretty bad on that front.

tiznow 3y ago

It's weird, I've harped on a few of these points in conversations with others (usually when talking about "sexy careers", and why people don't hold coders in the same regard as doctors) but your words made me realize why I'm trying to become a developer. The dealing with the machine rather than people is something I'm willing to run with more than anything, right now. Not wholly a function of unmet needs, but addressing a specific change I'd like to make.

onion2k 3y ago
The dealing with the machine rather than people is something I'm willing to run with more than anything, right now. Software engineering is an incredibly people-focused career. You will need to be able to work with other devs, stakeholders, support, users.. everyone really. Going into a tech career thinking that it's somewhere you can avoid people is never going to work out well.
- tiznow 3y ago
  I don't exactly think that. It's more like I would like to transpose more of my energy into fighting with a machine, and less into people, because my job is 90/10 dealing with execs and their bespoke, unmanageable concerns right now vs making something happen with technology. Could be a grass is greener thing. Maybe to current devs this comment looks crazy, I really wouldn't know yet. I enjoy working with people, actually. My current role is rapidly changing that.
- upsuper 3y ago
  This is true, but I only learnt about it after many years into this career, and to be honest I don't enjoy it very much. I still enjoy working with machines more than people.
- jahewson 3y ago
  Right but you can tell all those people “this idea is literally impossible, the machine cannot do it” and at least some of them will listen to you. Whereas in, say, government, people can just believe any stupid idea they want for an indefinite period of time. As you can tell, I’m great with people. :)
- shiroiushi 3y ago
  This has not been my experience at all. I do see this in the management layers, even with team leads, but the typical IC engineer does NOT spend any significant time talking with stakeholders, support, or users. They do have to work with other devs, but even that is frequently over chat, and not as much in-person, though it depends on the particular people and the company culture. Yes, you really can go into a tech career and avoid talking to people much, much more than other careers. Just stay out of management if you don't like talking to people.
  - david-gpu 3y ago
    The least effective ICs I ever ran into were those who brooded in front of their PC without communicating adequately with others. As a result, they didn't understand the requirements, built stuff that didn't meet the team's needs, and generally wasted a ton of time on stuff that needed to be redone.

bxguff 3y ago

any person earnestly applying a nerd and jock mentality to adult life should find a nice patch of grass to touch and talk to more people

hayst4ck 3y ago
The words are shortcuts for larger more complex ideas about primary motivations and goals. Reward structures learned as children and maturing young adults are definitely going to influence, subconsciously or consciously, adult behavior and understandings about how the world works. Here is Paul Graham using the word "nerd" and talking about the greater more complex idea: https://paulgraham.com/nerds.html https://paulgraham.com/nerds.html
- bxguff 3y ago
  I don't think goals and motivations are a monolith just for people who like computers, or STEM, or who socialize less in high school because 'they didn't want to play the popularity game'. this worldview is reductive, and wholly unaware how growing up is different for everybody. Just be aware before you judge people.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Phiwise_ 3y ago
Did you read more than the first sentence of this comment before replying? I'm up in the air on it but it deserves more discussion and less mental laziness than you're showing here.

mjr00 3y ago

> Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level of attractiveness and therefore access to attention and sex. This is just your perspective and, IMO, it's pretty warped. Software engineering is not a low-status position, even compared to doctors and lawyers. You aren't lacking in status or not having sex because you're a software engineer getting paid $200k/year instead of a doctor paid $200k/year. > Furthermore, the whole point of the vast majority of software engineering is to sell loot boxes to kids to increase shareholder wealth for a pittance of the wealth created (or something not too different from that for at least 60% of companies). Lawyers have to defend clients they know are guilty to help rapists and murderers walk free, and file IP lawsuits for patents they know are bullshit so that their client can siphon off a settlement from a large company, just because it's cheaper than a court battle. Lawyers have been widely (and unfairly!) regarded as one of the most despised professions since Shakespeare.[0] Professional atheletes have long been subject of the media debate over being paid "too much" compared to the value they bring to society. Even if they were broadly perceived as providing negative value to society, which I don't believe, software developers would not be unique. > To put it bluntly, many bad parents abandoned their kids to the internet where they found solace. Software engineering is a natural extension of spending too much time using the internet and becoming curious how it works. This is becoming less and less true. Many junior devs who were born post-2000 that I talk to never had a computer growing up other than their phone, and their first real experience with PCs came in high school and university. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let%27s_kill_all_the_lawyers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let%27s_kill_all_the_lawyers

p_l 3y ago
> This is just your perspective and, IMO, it's pretty warped. Software engineering is not a low-status position, even compared to doctors and lawyers. You aren't lacking in status or not having sex because you're a software engineer getting paid $200k/year instead of a doctor paid $200k/year. I find that it definitely points to a time period when someone entered maybe not workforce, but the "IT world" let's say. There was a time when programming in many places had definitely "unsexy" vibe among general population, with a lot of, well, painful "jokes", and all of that definitely set a "theme". fast forward a decade or so to 2010 and suddenly IT is no longer that place where only losers go.

a-french-anon 3y ago

Well said. I mean, I'd like to see a graph of "wizard" rate per profession, maybe even per country for curiosity matters. I'd bet my arm that programmers have it pretty bad on that front.