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For decades, they wanted to diversify away from oil and build tech industries. The problem is they don’t have skilled labor and would have to import “slaves” as

by lvl102 2y ago

For decades, they wanted to diversify away from oil and build tech industries. The problem is they don’t have skilled labor and would have to import “slaves” as they do with everything. They have some of the lowest skilled and laziest labor in the world. If/when dependence on oil ends, these countries will go back to being poor. Edit: contrast ME with Mexico who is running out of oil. Yet, they are able to build because they happen to have some of the hardest working labor in the world (though not notably skilled). I rather bet on Mexico revival over ME 100/100.

throwterrr 2y ago
[flagged]
pdimitar 2y ago
> For decades, they wanted to diversify away from oil and build tech industries. The problem is they don’t have skilled labor and would have to import “slaves” as they do with everything. Quite correct. I had people reaching out to me saying they want me to contract for Arabic millionaires -- websites, backends, a lot of stuff together -- but every time they demanded time tracking, they wanted to know my physical address, wanted my photo, and one of them even wanted me to install camera so he can track me in real time with some misguided AI-based software. Each time I giggled to myself and responded something along the lines of: "While the offer sounds tempting financially, and while I would love to have some tech independence, your offer falls short on the privacy front, and it also contains clauses that can nullify the independence to choose tech tomorrow. I'll have to decline and if you are open to feedback: insisting on face tracking is not how you hire the really good programmers, to which I don't pretend to belong but have known a good number of them". So yes their mindset is apparently always 10 masters + 20_000_000 slaves and as hard as they are trying, they will not export this culture to anywhere else except maybe India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, China and a few others. The West will not change for them no matter how rich they are. The Qatari have also obviously paid off various FIFA officials but hey, that's just football.
- nicolas_t 2y ago
  In my experience of working with software developers in India and China, the ones who are really good would absolutely refuse this kind of privacy invasion. Good developers living in those countries have choice and are well paid.
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    That's what I said: those who are good no longer accept abuse.
keiferski 2y ago
UAE is well on its way to being the Switzerland of the Middle East and Indian Ocean. Your rhetoric sounds like it’s from 2003.
- lvl102 2y ago
  Think about the fact that education is pretty much free there. They even pay for Western institutions to set up satellite campuses. You’d think they should have the most educated and skilled labor in the world. At some point, you have to realize it’s cultural: they don’t want to work. Funny you mention Switzerland because they have some of the highest skilled labor in the world.
  - keiferski 2y ago
    You’re generalizing nearly 20 million people in Saudi Arabia alone. How this is even an acceptable thing to say on HN is beyond me. The Gulf countries have more than enough expertise to manage and run their wealth for the foreseeable future. To say they’ll be poor again without oil is simply ignorant of the facts and probably related to the point I made above.
    - lvl102 2y ago
      You’re right. It’s a gross generalization. But it is based on my personal and professional experience.
      - keiferski 2y ago
        Yeah, and I went to Greece, a country with a population half the size of Saudi Arabia, a few years ago and got bad service everywhere. The economic data is also not good. But I wouldn’t somehow think it’s accurate or acceptable to claim Greeks are all lazy and rude.
    - oefrha 2y ago
      I won’t comment on culture but it is a fact that the majority of working Saudis work in bullshit government jobs where they basically collect paychecks for free, and actual labor is overwhelmingly performed by cheap migrant workers, no? Or is my information out of date? That’s an arrangement you can’t find anywhere outside the Gulf, to my knowledge.
yreg 2y ago
Dubai lives from tourism now. Of course, it was bootstrapped by oil.
- EduardoBautista 2y ago
  It also makes money from construction projects. It’s one of the big reasons they offer residence visas to people who buy real estate there. I live in Dubai but grew up in the United States. Despite what people may believe, there is freedom of religion here, women aren’t oppressed, and the government genuinely cares about having a good city to live in.
  - yreg 2y ago
    >about having a good city to live in I don't want to open a flame war, but I visited the city during the Expo and its a highway with a stripe of skyscrapers on each side and slums beyond. It's impossible to walk anywhere. (To be fair, the public transport is pretty good, as long as you live next to the highway.) When I read "a good city to live in" I imagine something like Vienna.
    - EduardoBautista 2y ago
      > It's impossible to walk anywhere. That is fair. I guess my comparison is San Diego (where I grew up) and Mexico, where I lived all of my adult life until moving to Dubai in 2022. The city is building a new metro line and improving on walkability as new neighborhoods of high population density pop up. It will still be very focused on shopping malls with AC because of the heat during the summers. Official records of real estate transactions have a data point for "closest shopping mall" for a reason.
      - brtkdotse 2y ago
        > Official records of real estate transactions have a data point for "closest shopping mall" for a reason. It baffles me that anyone, let alone a bunch of people, would look at this and say “ah, yes, this seems like a good place to live”. To each their own, I guess.
olabyne 2y ago
some colleagues worked in tech companies in middle east oil countries and they confirm what you say. The local employees would show up for just 2h 3h a day, fake some working tasks, and leave. They is so much money poured down on them that they don't understand the concept of work, to them it is just a hobby.
- zaphirplane 2y ago
  that’s their lottery win, might as well be jealous of the 60 million millionaires on earth

by lvl102 2y ago

throwterrr 2y ago

[flagged]

pdimitar 2y ago

> For decades, they wanted to diversify away from oil and build tech industries. The problem is they don’t have skilled labor and would have to import “slaves” as they do with everything. Quite correct. I had people reaching out to me saying they want me to contract for Arabic millionaires -- websites, backends, a lot of stuff together -- but every time they demanded time tracking, they wanted to know my physical address, wanted my photo, and one of them even wanted me to install camera so he can track me in real time with some misguided AI-based software. Each time I giggled to myself and responded something along the lines of: "While the offer sounds tempting financially, and while I would love to have some tech independence, your offer falls short on the privacy front, and it also contains clauses that can nullify the independence to choose tech tomorrow. I'll have to decline and if you are open to feedback: insisting on face tracking is not how you hire the really good programmers, to which I don't pretend to belong but have known a good number of them". So yes their mindset is apparently always 10 masters + 20_000_000 slaves and as hard as they are trying, they will not export this culture to anywhere else except maybe India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, China and a few others. The West will not change for them no matter how rich they are. The Qatari have also obviously paid off various FIFA officials but hey, that's just football.

nicolas_t 2y ago
In my experience of working with software developers in India and China, the ones who are really good would absolutely refuse this kind of privacy invasion. Good developers living in those countries have choice and are well paid.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  That's what I said: those who are good no longer accept abuse.

keiferski 2y ago

UAE is well on its way to being the Switzerland of the Middle East and Indian Ocean. Your rhetoric sounds like it’s from 2003.

lvl102 2y ago
Think about the fact that education is pretty much free there. They even pay for Western institutions to set up satellite campuses. You’d think they should have the most educated and skilled labor in the world. At some point, you have to realize it’s cultural: they don’t want to work. Funny you mention Switzerland because they have some of the highest skilled labor in the world.
- keiferski 2y ago
  You’re generalizing nearly 20 million people in Saudi Arabia alone. How this is even an acceptable thing to say on HN is beyond me. The Gulf countries have more than enough expertise to manage and run their wealth for the foreseeable future. To say they’ll be poor again without oil is simply ignorant of the facts and probably related to the point I made above.
  - lvl102 2y ago
    You’re right. It’s a gross generalization. But it is based on my personal and professional experience.
    - keiferski 2y ago
      Yeah, and I went to Greece, a country with a population half the size of Saudi Arabia, a few years ago and got bad service everywhere. The economic data is also not good. But I wouldn’t somehow think it’s accurate or acceptable to claim Greeks are all lazy and rude.
  - oefrha 2y ago
    I won’t comment on culture but it is a fact that the majority of working Saudis work in bullshit government jobs where they basically collect paychecks for free, and actual labor is overwhelmingly performed by cheap migrant workers, no? Or is my information out of date? That’s an arrangement you can’t find anywhere outside the Gulf, to my knowledge.

yreg 2y ago

Dubai lives from tourism now. Of course, it was bootstrapped by oil.

EduardoBautista 2y ago
It also makes money from construction projects. It’s one of the big reasons they offer residence visas to people who buy real estate there. I live in Dubai but grew up in the United States. Despite what people may believe, there is freedom of religion here, women aren’t oppressed, and the government genuinely cares about having a good city to live in.
- yreg 2y ago
  >about having a good city to live in I don't want to open a flame war, but I visited the city during the Expo and its a highway with a stripe of skyscrapers on each side and slums beyond. It's impossible to walk anywhere. (To be fair, the public transport is pretty good, as long as you live next to the highway.) When I read "a good city to live in" I imagine something like Vienna.
  - EduardoBautista 2y ago
    > It's impossible to walk anywhere. That is fair. I guess my comparison is San Diego (where I grew up) and Mexico, where I lived all of my adult life until moving to Dubai in 2022. The city is building a new metro line and improving on walkability as new neighborhoods of high population density pop up. It will still be very focused on shopping malls with AC because of the heat during the summers. Official records of real estate transactions have a data point for "closest shopping mall" for a reason.
    - brtkdotse 2y ago
      > Official records of real estate transactions have a data point for "closest shopping mall" for a reason. It baffles me that anyone, let alone a bunch of people, would look at this and say “ah, yes, this seems like a good place to live”. To each their own, I guess.

olabyne 2y ago

some colleagues worked in tech companies in middle east oil countries and they confirm what you say. The local employees would show up for just 2h 3h a day, fake some working tasks, and leave. They is so much money poured down on them that they don't understand the concept of work, to them it is just a hobby.

zaphirplane 2y ago
that’s their lottery win, might as well be jealous of the 60 million millionaires on earth