4 ms·

Air conditioning is far more efficient than heating (by a factor of 4x)

by diebeforei485 3y ago

robin_reala 3y ago
What form of heating?
- diebeforei485 3y ago
  I'm referring to the forms of heating that are actually in use - natural gas and electric furnaces / wall heaters.
  - robin_reala 2y ago
    Right, because from my perspective (Sweden) heat pumps are at 42% of the market.[1] I assume your market looks different? [1] https://reasonstobecheerful.world/heat-pumps-norway-efficiency-emissions/ https://reasonstobecheerful.world/heat-pumps-norway-efficien...
    - diebeforei485 2y ago
      The global market. Of course there are some regional variations.
tromp 3y ago
It's 4x more efficient than an electric heater, but not 4x more than a heat pump [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance
- pembrook 3y ago
  It still takes less energy than heating given climate differentials, so any argument that air conditioning is “garish” and “wrong” needs to be applied to heating also (and anyone living in cold climates ie. Europeans, Americans, etc). I see the argument that air conditioning is somehow “wrong” or “unsophisticated” on HN all the time (usually from Europeans) and it’s one of the weirdest things. I see no explanation for it other than racism. To claim you are somehow more virtuous than Arab people because you use artificial heating instead of artificial cooling is downright hilarious given this context.
  - delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
    I'm not European; I come from a tropical island country that is also in love with air-conditioning. I dislike it and prefer natural cool air. At home, it recycles stale, dry air. In urban settings, air-conditioners pump hotter air into the (already) sizzling outside. There are better implementations like district cooling with cold water, but this will require ripping out every single split-aircon unit from every single flat and replacing the ducting, the cooling units, and even the controls.
    - valval 3y ago
      >I dislike it and prefer natural cool air. Okay.
  - gcanyon 3y ago
    This is a really interesting point that I don't think gets enough attention, so I'll call it out: in general, it takes less energy to air condition than to heat because the differentials are greater -- meaning: it's easier to air condition from 45 to 25c than it is to heat from -5 to 25c, simply because 45 - 25 < 25 - -5.
  - vladms 3y ago
    The perception might be that air conditioning is used excessively and the same arguments are used for excessive heating. I know 2 countries in Europe in one winter heating targets 23 Celsius inside for outside temperatures of 5 Celsius in average and in another winter heating targets 19 Celsius inside for outside temperatures of 10 Celsius in average. Governments try to explain everybody they should use less heating, and I personally find comfortable (and reasonable) smaller differences between outside and inside. Now, when I was in a country with what I think is excessive air conditioning (not middle east, but no use to name it) it annoyed me the huge difference, 38 Celsius outside and 21 Celsius inside. I will complain about large differential no matter the country. Of course it might limit the activities I can make in some parts of the world (skiing in the desert anybody?), but that's what I find reasonable.
  - graemep 3y ago
    > I see the argument that air conditioning is somehow “wrong” or “unsophisticated” on HN all the time (usually from Europeans) and it’s one of the weirdest things. I see no explanation for it other than racism. I do not see that. In this thread it is making the point that the cities are extremely expensive to run and not sustainable. I see the same point made about desert cities in the US. European cities may need heating, but they also tend to have far better supplies of water, better government, and a far more diversified economy. White elephant projects are at least challenged and discussed and are rarely (if ever) on this scale. Even something like Britain's much maligned HS2 is far smaller in absolute cost (maybe by an order of magnitude depending on whose estimates of each you believe), and even more so relative to the population size of the economy.
- diebeforei485 3y ago
  Heat pumps are just air conditioners in reverse, so we're making the same point. The thing is, heat pumps are still very rare. The heating that is actually in use is not heat pumps.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Air conditioning is far more efficient than heating (by a factor of 4x)

robin_reala 3y ago

What form of heating?

diebeforei485 3y ago
I'm referring to the forms of heating that are actually in use - natural gas and electric furnaces / wall heaters.
- robin_reala 2y ago
  Right, because from my perspective (Sweden) heat pumps are at 42% of the market.[1] I assume your market looks different? [1] https://reasonstobecheerful.world/heat-pumps-norway-efficiency-emissions/ https://reasonstobecheerful.world/heat-pumps-norway-efficien...
  - diebeforei485 2y ago
    The global market. Of course there are some regional variations.

tromp 3y ago

It's 4x more efficient than an electric heater, but not 4x more than a heat pump [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance

pembrook 3y ago
It still takes less energy than heating given climate differentials, so any argument that air conditioning is “garish” and “wrong” needs to be applied to heating also (and anyone living in cold climates ie. Europeans, Americans, etc). I see the argument that air conditioning is somehow “wrong” or “unsophisticated” on HN all the time (usually from Europeans) and it’s one of the weirdest things. I see no explanation for it other than racism. To claim you are somehow more virtuous than Arab people because you use artificial heating instead of artificial cooling is downright hilarious given this context.
- delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
  I'm not European; I come from a tropical island country that is also in love with air-conditioning. I dislike it and prefer natural cool air. At home, it recycles stale, dry air. In urban settings, air-conditioners pump hotter air into the (already) sizzling outside. There are better implementations like district cooling with cold water, but this will require ripping out every single split-aircon unit from every single flat and replacing the ducting, the cooling units, and even the controls.
  - valval 3y ago
    >I dislike it and prefer natural cool air. Okay.
- gcanyon 3y ago
  This is a really interesting point that I don't think gets enough attention, so I'll call it out: in general, it takes less energy to air condition than to heat because the differentials are greater -- meaning: it's easier to air condition from 45 to 25c than it is to heat from -5 to 25c, simply because 45 - 25 < 25 - -5.
- vladms 3y ago
  The perception might be that air conditioning is used excessively and the same arguments are used for excessive heating. I know 2 countries in Europe in one winter heating targets 23 Celsius inside for outside temperatures of 5 Celsius in average and in another winter heating targets 19 Celsius inside for outside temperatures of 10 Celsius in average. Governments try to explain everybody they should use less heating, and I personally find comfortable (and reasonable) smaller differences between outside and inside. Now, when I was in a country with what I think is excessive air conditioning (not middle east, but no use to name it) it annoyed me the huge difference, 38 Celsius outside and 21 Celsius inside. I will complain about large differential no matter the country. Of course it might limit the activities I can make in some parts of the world (skiing in the desert anybody?), but that's what I find reasonable.
- graemep 3y ago
  > I see the argument that air conditioning is somehow “wrong” or “unsophisticated” on HN all the time (usually from Europeans) and it’s one of the weirdest things. I see no explanation for it other than racism. I do not see that. In this thread it is making the point that the cities are extremely expensive to run and not sustainable. I see the same point made about desert cities in the US. European cities may need heating, but they also tend to have far better supplies of water, better government, and a far more diversified economy. White elephant projects are at least challenged and discussed and are rarely (if ever) on this scale. Even something like Britain's much maligned HS2 is far smaller in absolute cost (maybe by an order of magnitude depending on whose estimates of each you believe), and even more so relative to the population size of the economy.
diebeforei485 3y ago
Heat pumps are just air conditioners in reverse, so we're making the same point. The thing is, heat pumps are still very rare. The heating that is actually in use is not heat pumps.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]