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As it should, just like the dirt cheap solar panels from China scared US suppliers and drove all of them out of business. When the government subsidizes produc

by tw04 3y ago

As it should, just like the dirt cheap solar panels from China scared US suppliers and drove all of them out of business. When the government subsidizes product to the point of it being significantly below market cost in order to capture market share, the folks who can't do the same lose. See: Amazon and small bookstores.

Arnt 3y ago
That car is small, light, has few moving parts, no luxury parts, and the most expensive part is dropping quickly in price. It clearly is below market cost, since it sets a new price record. But subsidized? What makes you think it's subsidized?
- pixelatedindex 3y ago
  I’m guessing the Chinese government bears some of this cost, particularly R&D. Even the article mentioned the government subsidizing cost. Unless you don’t believe that.
  - Arnt 3y ago
    The word subsidy is used to cover quite different things, At one end, people use the word "subsidy" about tax rules that apply to everyone, and at the other, things that I too consider to be subsidies.
- mooreds 3y ago
  https://www.ifw-kiel.de/fileadmin/Dateiverwaltung/IfW-Publications/fis-import/bc6aff38-abfc-424a-b631-6d789e992cf9-KPB173_en.pdf https://www.ifw-kiel.de/fileadmin/Dateiverwaltung/IfW-Public... Is an EU commissioned study. According to Bloomberg, it says BVD got billions of euros: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-10/byd-got-3-4-billion-chinese-aid-to-dominate-evs-study-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-10/byd-got-3...
- ninetyninenine 3y ago
  The article says it’s subsidized. The reality is if it is at all subsidized it’s incredibly minor. Subsidizing things to such an extent is a huge drain on any government and has dire consequences. He’s not wrong there’s a lot to fear he’s just too afraid to say exactly what it is. China in many areas is surpassing the US in technological superiority, capability and cost. The country is viciously fighting for intellectual and economic dominance based not on cheap tricks like subsidization or tariffs but through actual superior capability. Such a future is one realistic possibility out of many and it’s not just for cars. War between the two countries instigated by the US to maintain technological superiority is a possibility but very unlikely. If it happens there will likely be an excuse like human rights or defending Taiwan. There is little fear for this because likely the instigator for war will be the west. The west in a certain way wants war a bit more than the east. Everything you see in this thread and outside of this fear is an excuse. This is the true thing that Americans fear. They fear it so much that they can’t even fully admit it. Instead most people lie to them selves. It’s a form of patriotism that colors most people’s biases.
- hangonhn 3y ago
  I wrote a similar comment about this on a different post. They're unlikely to still be subsidized (or if it is it is small) but their subsidies did happen. China's industrial policy play book goes like this: 1. Erect barriers to foreign competitors. Subsidize domestic makers. This creates a chaotic fields of many domestic players that aren't particularly good nor efficient. 2. Remove or reduce subsidies and force the domestic players to fight for survival and thus innovate. The weaker ones will die off or get absorbed until there are only a few major domestic makers. 3. Lower barriers to foreign competitors (ie. invite Tesla to build a factory in Shanghai) to really ratchet up the competition and force innovation even more 4. Start exporting It's not traditional subsidies but that early governmental incubation phase was a huge help in companies building up their infrastructure (subsidized by government) and know how. Also, I want to point out this isn't an exclusively Chinese playbook but one that has been used by Japan and South Korea as well. The origin actually goes all the way back to Germany during their industrialization. The US doesn't do this because of our strong adherence to free market capitalism but people, even GOP Senator Rubio, is starting to reconsider this position.
wing-_-nuts 3y ago
TBH, if china wants to subsidize the production of green tech, more power too them. Maybe it'll start a green trade war with every country putting more and more money behind green tech. When it becomes ubiquitous, then we can start worrying about fairness. US automakers had ample opportunity to be leaders in this space and completely neglected it. Now they face the consequences of that decision.

by tw04 3y ago

Arnt 3y ago

That car is small, light, has few moving parts, no luxury parts, and the most expensive part is dropping quickly in price. It clearly is below market cost, since it sets a new price record. But subsidized? What makes you think it's subsidized?

pixelatedindex 3y ago
I’m guessing the Chinese government bears some of this cost, particularly R&D. Even the article mentioned the government subsidizing cost. Unless you don’t believe that.
- Arnt 3y ago
  The word subsidy is used to cover quite different things, At one end, people use the word "subsidy" about tax rules that apply to everyone, and at the other, things that I too consider to be subsidies.
mooreds 3y ago
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/fileadmin/Dateiverwaltung/IfW-Publications/fis-import/bc6aff38-abfc-424a-b631-6d789e992cf9-KPB173_en.pdf https://www.ifw-kiel.de/fileadmin/Dateiverwaltung/IfW-Public... Is an EU commissioned study. According to Bloomberg, it says BVD got billions of euros: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-10/byd-got-3-4-billion-chinese-aid-to-dominate-evs-study-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-10/byd-got-3...
ninetyninenine 3y ago
The article says it’s subsidized. The reality is if it is at all subsidized it’s incredibly minor. Subsidizing things to such an extent is a huge drain on any government and has dire consequences. He’s not wrong there’s a lot to fear he’s just too afraid to say exactly what it is. China in many areas is surpassing the US in technological superiority, capability and cost. The country is viciously fighting for intellectual and economic dominance based not on cheap tricks like subsidization or tariffs but through actual superior capability. Such a future is one realistic possibility out of many and it’s not just for cars. War between the two countries instigated by the US to maintain technological superiority is a possibility but very unlikely. If it happens there will likely be an excuse like human rights or defending Taiwan. There is little fear for this because likely the instigator for war will be the west. The west in a certain way wants war a bit more than the east. Everything you see in this thread and outside of this fear is an excuse. This is the true thing that Americans fear. They fear it so much that they can’t even fully admit it. Instead most people lie to them selves. It’s a form of patriotism that colors most people’s biases.
hangonhn 3y ago
I wrote a similar comment about this on a different post. They're unlikely to still be subsidized (or if it is it is small) but their subsidies did happen. China's industrial policy play book goes like this: 1. Erect barriers to foreign competitors. Subsidize domestic makers. This creates a chaotic fields of many domestic players that aren't particularly good nor efficient. 2. Remove or reduce subsidies and force the domestic players to fight for survival and thus innovate. The weaker ones will die off or get absorbed until there are only a few major domestic makers. 3. Lower barriers to foreign competitors (ie. invite Tesla to build a factory in Shanghai) to really ratchet up the competition and force innovation even more 4. Start exporting It's not traditional subsidies but that early governmental incubation phase was a huge help in companies building up their infrastructure (subsidized by government) and know how. Also, I want to point out this isn't an exclusively Chinese playbook but one that has been used by Japan and South Korea as well. The origin actually goes all the way back to Germany during their industrialization. The US doesn't do this because of our strong adherence to free market capitalism but people, even GOP Senator Rubio, is starting to reconsider this position.

wing-_-nuts 3y ago

TBH, if china wants to subsidize the production of green tech, more power too them. Maybe it'll start a green trade war with every country putting more and more money behind green tech. When it becomes ubiquitous, then we can start worrying about fairness. US automakers had ample opportunity to be leaders in this space and completely neglected it. Now they face the consequences of that decision.