5 ms·

Hard disagree. It’s algorithmic “engagement maximizing” systems, specifically. (Engagement is code for addiction.) If those pocket PCs had useful and creative

by api 3y ago

Hard disagree. It’s algorithmic “engagement maximizing” systems, specifically. (Engagement is code for addiction.) If those pocket PCs had useful and creative apps only and maybe some non-addiction-optimized games they’d be fine. The problem is the apps, not the hardware. With kids the absolute worst seem to be YouTube, TikTok, and Roblox. All three are banned in our house. The kids have their own devices (with monitoring) and can play games and explore other stuff but we do everything we can to keep addiction systems away. It works fine. Our kids engage with real people when they are available and tend only to go to the screens when bored. We don’t have a hard time limit but if we notice too much screen time we set up play dates or book activities. They’ll go for those things over screens… or at least they do now that the worst stuff is gone. Banning YouTube was the single highest impact one. The whole mood of the family and home noticeably changed. We got our kids back. They liked their friends again. To this day my #1 piece of parenting advice is to ban YouTube. A few others too but that one seems the worst for some reason. Engagement maximizing algorithms and UI dark patterns work incredibly well to the point that they can behave like a drug.

andrepd 3y ago
YouTube has a treasure trove of creative, stimulating, enlightening, entertaining, and didactic content. There is more interesting stuff there than you could watch in many lifetimes: science from Veritasium to lectures from Stanford on every topic imaginable, thousands of hours of high-quality content on every topic from WW2 to the most niche retro computer you can thing of, the best orchestras in the world playing at your demand — all at your fingertips. Unfortunately, it has 1000x more utter filthy trash. Seriously, I dare you: open the default YouTube homepage on incognito. It's terrifying. The dystopia is already here. --- My advice for parents: curate a few channels or playlists yourself, manually, but UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES give them unsupervised unfiltered access to YouTube. So-called "YouTube Kids" included. Those turbo-consumerist hellscape videos make my stomach churn.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  Just tried, and YouTube in incognito mode says "Try searching to get started" and shows 0 recommendations. That seems like a recent change. I remember it used to show junk.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  Even if kids watch only quality educational stuff on YouTube and plays non-addictive games, if that ends up being a lot of time and it replaces social interaction, it'll come at a cost (though they'll also learn a lot).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- lloeki 3y ago
  My child is not there yet, so I'm experimenting ahead of time with Jellyfin + downloading select content instead. The idea is to have sizeable content in there to explore in autonomy but no way out. Not particularly doing this happily WRT the content creators but I just can't get myself to trust platforms such as Youtube to not have unsuspected ways around.
  - daelon 3y ago
    You should also look into alternate video sites. A couple of creators I like(Practical Engineering, others I can't remember) have promoted Nebula as having curated high quality educational content.
  - heavyset_go 3y ago
    My library system offers streaming services that are high quality, might be something to look into. Same platform with videos offers e-books and whatnot, as well.
- lxgr 3y ago
  I generally agree, but as for the Youtube homepage in incognito mode: It’s now empty!
  - api 3y ago
    That’s an improvement! I’m going to give it a spin and see what it does when you search a few mundane things. Probably still rabbit holes you into trash.
- mnsc 3y ago
  I understand that YouTube has zero incentive for this but this is the kids mode I would like to have. A white-list of channels that I could negotiate with my kids. A couple of their favorite streamers that I also know that release material every other day, some weekly, so that the content can run out. "oh you watched YouTube all afternoon and you watched it all? Oh too bad, go out and play". And when I think about why YouTube never will add this feature, I get angry. Edit:sure I could also add a couple of education channels but my kids would sooner go out and play.
- rsanheim 3y ago
  Ah yes, but then how do you actually enforce these curated playlists are the only things your kids have access to? Especially when your kids have Chromebooks at school, and friends with unrestricted access on their devices, and learn ways to workaround any screen time restrictions? Feels to me like attacking the problem from the wrong angle.
  - api 3y ago
    You can’t 100% prevent them from accessing trash but you can limit it as much as possible. We’ve had success so far but I am concerned with what happens as they get older and get social pressure to join social media. I guess we have to parent. Paraphrasing something I saw elsewhere: “Raise your girls or meangirl anorexia influencers will; raise your boys or Andrew Tate will.” It’s always been important to keep your kids away from bad influences. It’s just that now they can get life guidance from sociopaths, creeps, unhinged ideologues, and self destructive losers in their pockets.
TheCleric 3y ago
I think that they are both to blame. The algorithms increase the desire and portable electronics increase the availability. More powerful together.
jay_kyburz 3y ago
My kids are 11 and 12. We have a YouTube time limit of 30 mins a day, and there are some videos that are just not allowed. Nothing with too much bad language, Nothing with people doing dangerous things to be funny, nothing with rich people buying stuff to break. I did spend some time in both my kids accounts blocking streamers I thought where just bad influences. It has given us a chance to talk about why some of the stuff on YouTube is stupid. Nobody in our house has used or is interested in TikTok so I have not had to deal with that. My kids know I hate Robox but they are allowed to play. (I'm a game developer). The kids are are not allowed to spend pocket money on Robucks, but they do get gift cards from friends and family on special occasions and because the Robucks are so rare they have become very precious. The kids agonize over every purchase. They carefully evaluate the value of things. They look for the scams, they avoid gambling and loot boxes, and instead look for things with more value. We have also had the opportunity to discuss that when the servers go down, all this virtual stuff they seem to own will disappear. That they don't really own it. As much as I like to hate Roblox, it has been good for my kids. There is a wide variety of free content and you can try before you buy. Its multiplayer by default so it's social in the good way, you are actually talking, thinking and playing with your friends. And both my kids use the editor creating new content and leaning programming.
- v-erne 3y ago
  Any specific reason for hating roblox? I'm especially interested in game developer perspective (parent perspective is familiar to me being father of two and aware that most of roblox content is of rather poor quality)
  - api 3y ago
    It seemed unusually addictive with a lot of stupid games that were nonetheless oddly captivating. Reminded me a lot of addictive (to kids) shit YouTube content. Roblox also had poor parental controls. Anything that serves up dumb or toxic content that is extremely “engaging” gets banned. YouTube was the worst by far but TikTok and Roblox also meet this criteria. I forgot to mention Instagram. Kids haven’t seen it but it’s been preemptively banned because it’s full of toxic influencers and other trash. Could say the same about Facebook but kids have zero interest in that so no need to bother. Facebook is where older people go to get their brains sucked out by conspiritainment and political echo chamber groups.
bingbingbing777 3y ago
I've seen parents with babies in a stroller with their phone strapped to the handle, so the babies can watch YouTube while they go for a walk. They are all going to be completely fucked.

by api 3y ago

andrepd 3y ago

YouTube has a treasure trove of creative, stimulating, enlightening, entertaining, and didactic content. There is more interesting stuff there than you could watch in many lifetimes: science from Veritasium to lectures from Stanford on every topic imaginable, thousands of hours of high-quality content on every topic from WW2 to the most niche retro computer you can thing of, the best orchestras in the world playing at your demand — all at your fingertips. Unfortunately, it has 1000x more utter filthy trash. Seriously, I dare you: open the default YouTube homepage on incognito. It's terrifying. The dystopia is already here. --- My advice for parents: curate a few channels or playlists yourself, manually, but UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES give them unsupervised unfiltered access to YouTube. So-called "YouTube Kids" included. Those turbo-consumerist hellscape videos make my stomach churn.

hot_gril 3y ago
Just tried, and YouTube in incognito mode says "Try searching to get started" and shows 0 recommendations. That seems like a recent change. I remember it used to show junk.
hot_gril 3y ago
Even if kids watch only quality educational stuff on YouTube and plays non-addictive games, if that ends up being a lot of time and it replaces social interaction, it'll come at a cost (though they'll also learn a lot).
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
lloeki 3y ago
My child is not there yet, so I'm experimenting ahead of time with Jellyfin + downloading select content instead. The idea is to have sizeable content in there to explore in autonomy but no way out. Not particularly doing this happily WRT the content creators but I just can't get myself to trust platforms such as Youtube to not have unsuspected ways around.
- daelon 3y ago
  You should also look into alternate video sites. A couple of creators I like(Practical Engineering, others I can't remember) have promoted Nebula as having curated high quality educational content.
- heavyset_go 3y ago
  My library system offers streaming services that are high quality, might be something to look into. Same platform with videos offers e-books and whatnot, as well.
lxgr 3y ago
I generally agree, but as for the Youtube homepage in incognito mode: It’s now empty!
- api 3y ago
  That’s an improvement! I’m going to give it a spin and see what it does when you search a few mundane things. Probably still rabbit holes you into trash.
mnsc 3y ago
I understand that YouTube has zero incentive for this but this is the kids mode I would like to have. A white-list of channels that I could negotiate with my kids. A couple of their favorite streamers that I also know that release material every other day, some weekly, so that the content can run out. "oh you watched YouTube all afternoon and you watched it all? Oh too bad, go out and play". And when I think about why YouTube never will add this feature, I get angry. Edit:sure I could also add a couple of education channels but my kids would sooner go out and play.
rsanheim 3y ago
Ah yes, but then how do you actually enforce these curated playlists are the only things your kids have access to? Especially when your kids have Chromebooks at school, and friends with unrestricted access on their devices, and learn ways to workaround any screen time restrictions? Feels to me like attacking the problem from the wrong angle.
- api 3y ago
  You can’t 100% prevent them from accessing trash but you can limit it as much as possible. We’ve had success so far but I am concerned with what happens as they get older and get social pressure to join social media. I guess we have to parent. Paraphrasing something I saw elsewhere: “Raise your girls or meangirl anorexia influencers will; raise your boys or Andrew Tate will.” It’s always been important to keep your kids away from bad influences. It’s just that now they can get life guidance from sociopaths, creeps, unhinged ideologues, and self destructive losers in their pockets.

TheCleric 3y ago

I think that they are both to blame. The algorithms increase the desire and portable electronics increase the availability. More powerful together.

jay_kyburz 3y ago

My kids are 11 and 12. We have a YouTube time limit of 30 mins a day, and there are some videos that are just not allowed. Nothing with too much bad language, Nothing with people doing dangerous things to be funny, nothing with rich people buying stuff to break. I did spend some time in both my kids accounts blocking streamers I thought where just bad influences. It has given us a chance to talk about why some of the stuff on YouTube is stupid. Nobody in our house has used or is interested in TikTok so I have not had to deal with that. My kids know I hate Robox but they are allowed to play. (I'm a game developer). The kids are are not allowed to spend pocket money on Robucks, but they do get gift cards from friends and family on special occasions and because the Robucks are so rare they have become very precious. The kids agonize over every purchase. They carefully evaluate the value of things. They look for the scams, they avoid gambling and loot boxes, and instead look for things with more value. We have also had the opportunity to discuss that when the servers go down, all this virtual stuff they seem to own will disappear. That they don't really own it. As much as I like to hate Roblox, it has been good for my kids. There is a wide variety of free content and you can try before you buy. Its multiplayer by default so it's social in the good way, you are actually talking, thinking and playing with your friends. And both my kids use the editor creating new content and leaning programming.

v-erne 3y ago
Any specific reason for hating roblox? I'm especially interested in game developer perspective (parent perspective is familiar to me being father of two and aware that most of roblox content is of rather poor quality)
- api 3y ago
  It seemed unusually addictive with a lot of stupid games that were nonetheless oddly captivating. Reminded me a lot of addictive (to kids) shit YouTube content. Roblox also had poor parental controls. Anything that serves up dumb or toxic content that is extremely “engaging” gets banned. YouTube was the worst by far but TikTok and Roblox also meet this criteria. I forgot to mention Instagram. Kids haven’t seen it but it’s been preemptively banned because it’s full of toxic influencers and other trash. Could say the same about Facebook but kids have zero interest in that so no need to bother. Facebook is where older people go to get their brains sucked out by conspiritainment and political echo chamber groups.

bingbingbing777 3y ago

I've seen parents with babies in a stroller with their phone strapped to the handle, so the babies can watch YouTube while they go for a walk. They are all going to be completely fucked.