7 ms·

I agree with Stumpy Nubs on this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxKkuDduYLk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxKkuDduYLk He is opposed to this but expects it

I agree with Stumpy Nubs on this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxKkuDduYLk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxKkuDduYLk He is opposed to this but expects it to pass. His best argument is that it would effectively outlaw affordable low end "contractor" portable job-site style table saws. I have one of those, a cheap $150 Ryobi. It would be more like $450 with the SawStop feature and I would not have been able to afford it. I'd be using a circular saw instead. Maybe that is a bit safer, and at least it's more affordable until they require the same tech in circular saws. But shouldn't I be the one to weigh the value of a risk to only myself against the value of my fingers?

evancordell 3y ago
This video is a great overview of the history and the recent hearings, came here to link it. Not sure I agree with his conclusion though - once all manufacturers are required to include the technology, surely they will still compete on price and find ways to get cheaper models to market? They will be unencumbered by the risk of patent violation to innovate on cheaper approaches to the same problem. He also argues for riving knives and blade guards as an alternative, which are great, but not all cuts can be made with them in place. As a hobby woodworker that sometimes makes mistakes, I've wanted a SawStop for a long time but have been stymied by the cost, so maybe I'm just being optimistic.
Delphiza 3y ago
That's a good point. I would think that a circular saw or track saw is more dangerous. You tend to be hunched over the blade in an awkward position. I use a table saw over a circular saw because, for me, it seems safer.
- rimunroe 3y ago
  I would love if someone could chime in with actual statistics here, but I've always heard that table saws are the most dangerous common power tool in the US by raw injury count alone. I have a weak assumption that more people have circular saws than have table saws. This seems unsurprising to me, because both track and circular saws are used with the blades faced away from the person. I can't speak to track saws, but I've never had a board launched at me by a circular saw. People also tend to over-extend themselves over tablesaws, and have their hands inches from the blades.
  - thatguymike 3y ago
    Also, when you drop a circular saw it stops spinning. Table saws won't shut off automatically if you lose your balance or something unexpected happens in your environment.
    - lostlogin 3y ago
      > Also, when you drop a circular saw it stops spinning. The blade is still moving very fast, it doesn’t stop spinning. The guard is what makes it safe - though maybe there are other types out there?
      - cwillu 3y ago
        Pretty much any circular saw made in the last twenty years has a brake.
        throw0101a 3y ago
        Yes, but braking is not instantaneous. IIRC, the blade will spin for 2-3 seconds (instead of possible 10 without any brake). It's possible that the guard would close faster than the spin would stop.
        cwillu 3y ago
        It's pretty fast: my bosch stops in about half a second.
  - oooyay 3y ago
    > I would love if someone could chime in with actual statistics here, but I've always heard that table saws are the most dangerous common power tool in the US by raw injury count alone. I don't have data, but there are various threats with a table saw. 1. Overconfidence / complacency. Things like reaching across the blade, not using push sticks, etc. 2. Kickback. It happens because you pinch the workpiece between the blade and the fence. Knowing how to properly configure a fench, featherboards, and how to use the kerf and ribbing knife is important. 3. Shop clutter. People tripping and/or slipping around their saw. SawStop style tech vastly improves most of these scenarios. Kickback, though, turns a workpiece into a very large projectile. Where you stand matters a lot.
- fatbird 3y ago
  Intuitively, the table saw seems more dangerous to me (and I'm typing this with a finger with three pins in it from a table saw injury) because you're manipulating the circular saw directly, and thus more consciously. With a table saw you're manipulating the workpiece into the blade, which is indirectly a threat--in my case, the wood kicked, knocking my finger into the blade.
  - 15155 3y ago
    Would a push stick have helped this situation?
    - fatbird 3y ago
      It wasn't the push stick hand (that was actually holding a push stick). It was the hand that was standing in for the feather board I should have had.
  - quickthrowman 3y ago
    Wow, it’s crazy that the wood kicking caused your finger to release its grip on the push stick and get hit by the blade.
    - fatbird 3y ago
      What's crazier is that my grip on the push stick never wavered, and still managed to knock my other hand into the blade!
idontpost 3y ago
[dead]
DannyBee 3y ago
"He is opposed to this but expects it to pass. His best argument is that it would effectively outlaw affordable low end "contractor" portable job-site style table saws" "job site saws" account for 18% of the market, just to put this in perspective. It is also totally wrong. The submitted comments to the CPSC suggest an increase of $50-100 per saw, even with an 8% royalty (which will no longer exist). That is from PTI, who is the corporate lobbying organization of the tool saw manufacturers and plays games with the numbers. In the discovery of the numerous lawsuits around design defects in table saws, it turns out most of the manufacturers had already done the R&D and come to a cost of about $40-50 per saw. Everything else is profit. We already have riving knives and you name it, and injury cost is still 4x the entire tablesaw market. It's worse if you weight it by where injuries come from. For every dollar in job site saws sold, you cause ~$20 in injuries. The one dollar goes to profit, the $20 is paid by society, for the most part (since they are also statistically uninsured). Let's make it not regulation - which seems to get people up in arms. Here's a deal i'd be happy to make (as i'm sure would the CPSC) - nobody has to include any safety technology. Instead manufacturers are 100% responsible for their weighted share of blade injury costs (whether the user is insured or not). If the whole thing was profitable, this would not be a problem. Suddenly you will discover their problem isn't that there is technology being mandated, but they don't want to pay the cost of what they cause. (In other, like say cars, you will find the yearly profit well outweighs the yearly cost of injuries)
- robodan 3y ago
  That $50 number seems incredibly optimistic. Just the rebuild cartridge is selling for $99 right now: https://www.sawstop.com/product/standard-brake-cartridge-tsbc-10r3/ https://www.sawstop.com/product/standard-brake-cartridge-tsb... And the saw frame has to be much stronger to handle the force of stopping that blade. Throwing $50 of new parts on an existing frame just means you throw the whole saw away after it triggers. Every time this triggers, you need a new cartridge and blade ($40+) and time to swap them in. If I was sure this was saving a finger (as the dramatic stories in the press state), then I wouldn't think twice. But it probably just wet wood or something else conductive causing a false trigger. Show me the false rate data please.
taeric 3y ago
I mean, we have effectively outlawed cheaper vehicles that could probably have worked for a lot of needs. And... that largely seems like a fine thing? I think it is fair that a holistic analysis of the legislation would make a lot of sense. I would be surprised to know that changing a saw from 150 to 450 would be a major change in its use. But, I could be convinced that it is not worth it. I will note that is also taking at face value the cost of implementing the tech. In ways I don't know that I grant. I remember when adding a camera to a car's license plate was several hundred dollars of added cost. And I greatly regret not having one on my older vehicle. Mandating those was absolutely the correct choice. My hunch is when all saws have the tech, the cost of implementing will surprisingly shrink.
- superkuh 3y ago
  > we have effectively outlawed cheaper vehicles that could probably have worked for a lot of needs. Some states have done that but many states have not. This would be fine as a state law but it is infringing as a federal law.
  - taeric 3y ago
    If these were the actual concerns, you can start the discussion at jurisdiction. Starting the debates with costs, though, sorta belies that concern? Then, a problem you are going to run headlong into is that there are plenty of things that you can argue should not be done at different levels, but that are effectively controlled at a larger level. As a fun example, who makes sure that turmeric coming into the US doesn't have too much lead? Why can't/don't we leave that up to the individual states to fully deal with? Probably more fun, what about state laws that cover how much space is required for live stock for shelved products?
- mguerville 3y ago
  Maybe some power tools that get only occasional use could be fine with a better rental market. Not long ago I bought a ceramic tile cutter because renting one for 3 days was more expensive that buying one outright, but if that market went towards more expensive but safer models I'd reconsider and would do just fine with renting. And then tradespeople who need these tools more than 10 days per lifetime need to buy upscale anyway...
lostlogin 3y ago
> Maybe that is a bit safer Isn’t that the entire point? Weekend warriors and small operators are going to be those getting injuries. Those with massive operations are likely using high spec gear already. I live in a country (NZ) with fairly aggressive workplace safety legislation. We also have a single payer for accidental injuries and time off work (The Accident Compensation Corporation). It helps keep the courts clear but also means they have a lot of visibility into injury types and help work to prevent common accident methods. Don’t delve too deep into the dark side of their work, its grim.
germinator 3y ago
Circular saws are not just "a bit" safer. They cause far fewer injuries despite getting more use in construction. Table saws really are a menace. I'm not in favor of this regulation because I don't like the idea of the government regulating hobbies, and I think it ends with some tools and hobbies getting banned altogether... but we should make this much clear.
- drewrv 3y ago
  Do you think the government should regulate workplace safety?
  - germinator 3y ago
    I think there's a better argument for it, because there's some power asymmetry at play between the employees and the employer. It's harder to say "no" if you need this job to pay your bills. I still wish we had clear limits and tests for this, though. Instead, we have bureaucracies that keep expanding even after they tackle the most pressing issues. For hobby work, the government is protecting me from me, and there are no winners in that game. I'm not imagining some hypothetical dystopia. The hobby landscape in Europe is already far more constrained than it is in the US.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      What's the difference between a hobby table saw and a "professional" one?
      - trey-jones 3y ago
        The hobby table saw is the one I have in my basement that I use by my own choice, on my own time. The professional one is the one somebody else pays me to use everyday. They might be identical, that doesn't matter. I'm going to be the guy that buys for cheap the "professional table saw" that got liquidated in the event that some new safety tech is legally mandated. 100% if I choose to buy it for my personal use, the government doesn't get to say I can't because I might hurt myself. That said, I've never liked the table saw very much as a tool. The use-case is narrow, and yeah, you have to pay attention and be careful.
throw0101a 3y ago
> I agree with Stumpy Nubs on this. While I understand the name is not meant to be taken literally, I'd be curious to know the opinion of someone like Jamie Perkins who does actually have 'stumpy' fingers because of a woodworking incident: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZMe0QIET6g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZMe0QIET6g * https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8XEQ1XKYNDXTUhEZWcHAPZlpXBu__wui https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8XEQ1XKYNDXTUhEZWcHA... It wasn't with a table saw though, but rather a jointer: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jointer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jointer He now has a prosthetic hand: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu52UOeJAj8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu52UOeJAj8
- hinkley 3y ago
  I've seen jointer near-miss videos and the adult education woodworking class I took is even more terrifying in retrospect. I knew table saws were dangerous and assumed they were the most dangerous. At least with a table saw the fingers can often be reattached. Jointers and router tables just make hamburger. I'm becoming a much bigger fan of mounting an uneven piece of wood to plywood and running it through the table saw to get that first edge.
  - huytersd 3y ago
    How? Do you have a video of the near miss or can you explain it? If you use a piece of wood to push down the top I don’t see how it’s risky.
    - hinkley 3y ago
      The common theme is that when the blades catch the wood and the hand is gripping it, the hand tries to follow the wood. If you get very unlucky the wood escapes about the time your hand is nearing the blade and momentum carries you in. For routing tables it’s the curved pieces that’ll get ya. Snag, spin, bzzzt. I believe my instructor suggested but didn’t mandate a two pusher technique with the jointer, where the left hand pushes the wood against the back plate and forward while the right helps stabilize. Less pressure on the hand with a vector toward the blade. Seemed safer to me.
drewrv 3y ago
> But shouldn't I be the one to weigh the value of a risk to only myself against the value of my fingers? What about employees? They don't get to decide.
- ApolloFortyNine 3y ago
  It'd be very trivial to attach a "business of X size" or even just a business at all requirement to the law.
plz-remove-card 3y ago
> But shouldn't I be the one to weigh the value of a risk to only myself against the value of my fingers? I agree, at least until we get free universal health care, then the government has an argument for making these decisions.
spamizbad 3y ago
I think that misses an important argument he makes which is that all table saws should be equipped with better (higher quality, more effective) blade guards and riving knives. Much cheaper to implement and nearly as effective as sawstop. The problem is woodworkers will do dumb things like remove both of these things from their saws to do unsafe cuts. You can even find youtube videos of people confidently asserting they're useless and just get in the way (They are not).
- meragrin_ 3y ago
  > The problem is woodworkers will do dumb things like remove both of these things from their saws to do unsafe cuts. And they'll disable these new gadgets as well. The ones which work through conductivity have to have a bypass to be able to cut conductive material.
  - anonymousab 3y ago
    Yes, but shifting the defaults from "something they take off because it is annoying every time they use it" to "something they turn off for specific types of cuts and otherwise never notice" can be a huge game changer for tool safety.
  - huytersd 3y ago
    There’s no reason to do it though. The sawstop is in the body of the tablesaw. It doesn’t get in the way. The only reason I can see someone try to disable it is that really wet (and I mean soaking) wood might set it off.
- huytersd 3y ago
  Blade guards and riving knives are not enough. You would also need a kickback arrestor at the very least (even though the sawstop does not fix that issue).
  - porkbeer 3y ago
    I have neither on mine and still have all my fingers. Weird.
drewrv 3y ago
I'm a fan of Stumpy Nubs but I disagree with his economic analysis here. Saw Stop has effectively had a monopoly on this type of saw, so of course they've been pricing it high. When Bosh came out with their own version it only made sense to price it at a comparable level to their only competitor. For them to massively undercut Saw Stop would leave money on the table. There will be some cost in re-engineering the cheap saws to handle a sensor and brake. But those costs will be amortized over time and the materials themselves will be incredibly cheap. We're talking about a capacitive sensor and a chunk of sacrificial metal. There will also probably be some cost saving innovation around the tech. Since Saw Stop is a premium brand coasting on patent-enforced monopoly they haven't had to invest in R&D the way Dewalt, Bosh, and Makita will.
gammarator 3y ago
> a risk to only myself against the value of my fingers? If you amputate your fingers, the rest of us bear the cost of your reconstructive surgery through higher health insurance premiums.
- ddsgtuuu 3y ago
  [flagged]
jcrawfordor 3y ago
I think you're on a reasonable path with your thinking there. Something I learned a couple of years ago is that table saws are particularly popular in the US. It varies from country to country, but in some places circular saws on tracks are the norm for the same purposes, especially on job sites. These aren't very popular in the US so you don't see the dedicated "track saws" in stores here that are common in the UK for example. You can pretty easily buy a Kregg Accu-Cut which is a similar idea that you bolt onto your existing circular saw, but it's a little bit annoying compared to purpose-built track saws that are a tidier design and often plunge cut as well so it's simpler to start the cut. But you can also get proper track saws online, and I'll probably pick one up eventually to replace my Accu-Cut. I don't think this is a perfect solution, getting cabinetry precision with a track saw might be tricky. But no one's doing that with a portable contractor table saw anyway. And the track saws are even more portable. I think the table saw concept is a better fit for larger, fixed tools, which I would guess probably have a better safety record than portables (larger table, cleaner environment, etc) even without sawstop technology. And I think it's more feasible to have good quality guards that will be less annoying on a fixed tool than a portable one, where they have a tendency to break off.
- YeBanKo 3y ago
  The US has space and pick up trucks that can fit plenty of table saws. Big tools in general are more accessible and affordable in the US. I have not seen as many people owning large tools like table saws, metal mills and lathes as in the US.
- JamesSwift 3y ago
  You also lose a lot of potential for 'repeatable cuts'
  - huytersd 3y ago
    Exactly. That’s the main thing I use my table saw for. Absolutely accurate, repeated cuts.
huytersd 3y ago
Maybe but I presume the Chinese will jump in to subsidize that through mass production and we will all end up with saw stop enabled $250 contractor saws.
mattmaroon 3y ago
A circ saw is definitely not safer if you're ripping boards!
- greedo 3y ago
  A circ saw might not be, but a tracksaw is much safer for breaking down sheet goods. Just not as fast as blasting a sheet of plywood through a job site saw.
  - mattmaroon 3y ago
    I just got one this week. Still in the box but I’m excited.
- huytersd 3y ago
  Why? If kickback happens the blade guard just closes up.

evancordell 3y ago

This video is a great overview of the history and the recent hearings, came here to link it. Not sure I agree with his conclusion though - once all manufacturers are required to include the technology, surely they will still compete on price and find ways to get cheaper models to market? They will be unencumbered by the risk of patent violation to innovate on cheaper approaches to the same problem. He also argues for riving knives and blade guards as an alternative, which are great, but not all cuts can be made with them in place. As a hobby woodworker that sometimes makes mistakes, I've wanted a SawStop for a long time but have been stymied by the cost, so maybe I'm just being optimistic.

Delphiza 3y ago

That's a good point. I would think that a circular saw or track saw is more dangerous. You tend to be hunched over the blade in an awkward position. I use a table saw over a circular saw because, for me, it seems safer.

rimunroe 3y ago
I would love if someone could chime in with actual statistics here, but I've always heard that table saws are the most dangerous common power tool in the US by raw injury count alone. I have a weak assumption that more people have circular saws than have table saws. This seems unsurprising to me, because both track and circular saws are used with the blades faced away from the person. I can't speak to track saws, but I've never had a board launched at me by a circular saw. People also tend to over-extend themselves over tablesaws, and have their hands inches from the blades.
- thatguymike 3y ago
  Also, when you drop a circular saw it stops spinning. Table saws won't shut off automatically if you lose your balance or something unexpected happens in your environment.
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    > Also, when you drop a circular saw it stops spinning. The blade is still moving very fast, it doesn’t stop spinning. The guard is what makes it safe - though maybe there are other types out there?
    - cwillu 3y ago
      Pretty much any circular saw made in the last twenty years has a brake.
      - throw0101a 3y ago
        Yes, but braking is not instantaneous. IIRC, the blade will spin for 2-3 seconds (instead of possible 10 without any brake). It's possible that the guard would close faster than the spin would stop.
        cwillu 3y ago
        It's pretty fast: my bosch stops in about half a second.
- oooyay 3y ago
  > I would love if someone could chime in with actual statistics here, but I've always heard that table saws are the most dangerous common power tool in the US by raw injury count alone. I don't have data, but there are various threats with a table saw. 1. Overconfidence / complacency. Things like reaching across the blade, not using push sticks, etc. 2. Kickback. It happens because you pinch the workpiece between the blade and the fence. Knowing how to properly configure a fench, featherboards, and how to use the kerf and ribbing knife is important. 3. Shop clutter. People tripping and/or slipping around their saw. SawStop style tech vastly improves most of these scenarios. Kickback, though, turns a workpiece into a very large projectile. Where you stand matters a lot.
fatbird 3y ago
Intuitively, the table saw seems more dangerous to me (and I'm typing this with a finger with three pins in it from a table saw injury) because you're manipulating the circular saw directly, and thus more consciously. With a table saw you're manipulating the workpiece into the blade, which is indirectly a threat--in my case, the wood kicked, knocking my finger into the blade.
- 15155 3y ago
  Would a push stick have helped this situation?
  - fatbird 3y ago
    It wasn't the push stick hand (that was actually holding a push stick). It was the hand that was standing in for the feather board I should have had.
- quickthrowman 3y ago
  Wow, it’s crazy that the wood kicking caused your finger to release its grip on the push stick and get hit by the blade.
  - fatbird 3y ago
    What's crazier is that my grip on the push stick never wavered, and still managed to knock my other hand into the blade!

idontpost 3y ago

[dead]

DannyBee 3y ago

"He is opposed to this but expects it to pass. His best argument is that it would effectively outlaw affordable low end "contractor" portable job-site style table saws" "job site saws" account for 18% of the market, just to put this in perspective. It is also totally wrong. The submitted comments to the CPSC suggest an increase of $50-100 per saw, even with an 8% royalty (which will no longer exist). That is from PTI, who is the corporate lobbying organization of the tool saw manufacturers and plays games with the numbers. In the discovery of the numerous lawsuits around design defects in table saws, it turns out most of the manufacturers had already done the R&D and come to a cost of about $40-50 per saw. Everything else is profit. We already have riving knives and you name it, and injury cost is still 4x the entire tablesaw market. It's worse if you weight it by where injuries come from. For every dollar in job site saws sold, you cause ~$20 in injuries. The one dollar goes to profit, the $20 is paid by society, for the most part (since they are also statistically uninsured). Let's make it not regulation - which seems to get people up in arms. Here's a deal i'd be happy to make (as i'm sure would the CPSC) - nobody has to include any safety technology. Instead manufacturers are 100% responsible for their weighted share of blade injury costs (whether the user is insured or not). If the whole thing was profitable, this would not be a problem. Suddenly you will discover their problem isn't that there is technology being mandated, but they don't want to pay the cost of what they cause. (In other, like say cars, you will find the yearly profit well outweighs the yearly cost of injuries)

robodan 3y ago
That $50 number seems incredibly optimistic. Just the rebuild cartridge is selling for $99 right now: https://www.sawstop.com/product/standard-brake-cartridge-tsbc-10r3/ https://www.sawstop.com/product/standard-brake-cartridge-tsb... And the saw frame has to be much stronger to handle the force of stopping that blade. Throwing $50 of new parts on an existing frame just means you throw the whole saw away after it triggers. Every time this triggers, you need a new cartridge and blade ($40+) and time to swap them in. If I was sure this was saving a finger (as the dramatic stories in the press state), then I wouldn't think twice. But it probably just wet wood or something else conductive causing a false trigger. Show me the false rate data please.

taeric 3y ago

I mean, we have effectively outlawed cheaper vehicles that could probably have worked for a lot of needs. And... that largely seems like a fine thing? I think it is fair that a holistic analysis of the legislation would make a lot of sense. I would be surprised to know that changing a saw from 150 to 450 would be a major change in its use. But, I could be convinced that it is not worth it. I will note that is also taking at face value the cost of implementing the tech. In ways I don't know that I grant. I remember when adding a camera to a car's license plate was several hundred dollars of added cost. And I greatly regret not having one on my older vehicle. Mandating those was absolutely the correct choice. My hunch is when all saws have the tech, the cost of implementing will surprisingly shrink.

superkuh 3y ago
> we have effectively outlawed cheaper vehicles that could probably have worked for a lot of needs. Some states have done that but many states have not. This would be fine as a state law but it is infringing as a federal law.
- taeric 3y ago
  If these were the actual concerns, you can start the discussion at jurisdiction. Starting the debates with costs, though, sorta belies that concern? Then, a problem you are going to run headlong into is that there are plenty of things that you can argue should not be done at different levels, but that are effectively controlled at a larger level. As a fun example, who makes sure that turmeric coming into the US doesn't have too much lead? Why can't/don't we leave that up to the individual states to fully deal with? Probably more fun, what about state laws that cover how much space is required for live stock for shelved products?
mguerville 3y ago
Maybe some power tools that get only occasional use could be fine with a better rental market. Not long ago I bought a ceramic tile cutter because renting one for 3 days was more expensive that buying one outright, but if that market went towards more expensive but safer models I'd reconsider and would do just fine with renting. And then tradespeople who need these tools more than 10 days per lifetime need to buy upscale anyway...

lostlogin 3y ago

> Maybe that is a bit safer Isn’t that the entire point? Weekend warriors and small operators are going to be those getting injuries. Those with massive operations are likely using high spec gear already. I live in a country (NZ) with fairly aggressive workplace safety legislation. We also have a single payer for accidental injuries and time off work (The Accident Compensation Corporation). It helps keep the courts clear but also means they have a lot of visibility into injury types and help work to prevent common accident methods. Don’t delve too deep into the dark side of their work, its grim.

germinator 3y ago

Circular saws are not just "a bit" safer. They cause far fewer injuries despite getting more use in construction. Table saws really are a menace. I'm not in favor of this regulation because I don't like the idea of the government regulating hobbies, and I think it ends with some tools and hobbies getting banned altogether... but we should make this much clear.

drewrv 3y ago
Do you think the government should regulate workplace safety?
- germinator 3y ago
  I think there's a better argument for it, because there's some power asymmetry at play between the employees and the employer. It's harder to say "no" if you need this job to pay your bills. I still wish we had clear limits and tests for this, though. Instead, we have bureaucracies that keep expanding even after they tackle the most pressing issues. For hobby work, the government is protecting me from me, and there are no winners in that game. I'm not imagining some hypothetical dystopia. The hobby landscape in Europe is already far more constrained than it is in the US.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    What's the difference between a hobby table saw and a "professional" one?
    - trey-jones 3y ago
      The hobby table saw is the one I have in my basement that I use by my own choice, on my own time. The professional one is the one somebody else pays me to use everyday. They might be identical, that doesn't matter. I'm going to be the guy that buys for cheap the "professional table saw" that got liquidated in the event that some new safety tech is legally mandated. 100% if I choose to buy it for my personal use, the government doesn't get to say I can't because I might hurt myself. That said, I've never liked the table saw very much as a tool. The use-case is narrow, and yeah, you have to pay attention and be careful.

throw0101a 3y ago

> I agree with Stumpy Nubs on this. While I understand the name is not meant to be taken literally, I'd be curious to know the opinion of someone like Jamie Perkins who does actually have 'stumpy' fingers because of a woodworking incident: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZMe0QIET6g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZMe0QIET6g * https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8XEQ1XKYNDXTUhEZWcHAPZlpXBu__wui https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8XEQ1XKYNDXTUhEZWcHA... It wasn't with a table saw though, but rather a jointer: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jointer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jointer He now has a prosthetic hand: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu52UOeJAj8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu52UOeJAj8

hinkley 3y ago
I've seen jointer near-miss videos and the adult education woodworking class I took is even more terrifying in retrospect. I knew table saws were dangerous and assumed they were the most dangerous. At least with a table saw the fingers can often be reattached. Jointers and router tables just make hamburger. I'm becoming a much bigger fan of mounting an uneven piece of wood to plywood and running it through the table saw to get that first edge.
- huytersd 3y ago
  How? Do you have a video of the near miss or can you explain it? If you use a piece of wood to push down the top I don’t see how it’s risky.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    The common theme is that when the blades catch the wood and the hand is gripping it, the hand tries to follow the wood. If you get very unlucky the wood escapes about the time your hand is nearing the blade and momentum carries you in. For routing tables it’s the curved pieces that’ll get ya. Snag, spin, bzzzt. I believe my instructor suggested but didn’t mandate a two pusher technique with the jointer, where the left hand pushes the wood against the back plate and forward while the right helps stabilize. Less pressure on the hand with a vector toward the blade. Seemed safer to me.

drewrv 3y ago

> But shouldn't I be the one to weigh the value of a risk to only myself against the value of my fingers? What about employees? They don't get to decide.

ApolloFortyNine 3y ago
It'd be very trivial to attach a "business of X size" or even just a business at all requirement to the law.

plz-remove-card 3y ago

> But shouldn't I be the one to weigh the value of a risk to only myself against the value of my fingers? I agree, at least until we get free universal health care, then the government has an argument for making these decisions.

spamizbad 3y ago

I think that misses an important argument he makes which is that all table saws should be equipped with better (higher quality, more effective) blade guards and riving knives. Much cheaper to implement and nearly as effective as sawstop. The problem is woodworkers will do dumb things like remove both of these things from their saws to do unsafe cuts. You can even find youtube videos of people confidently asserting they're useless and just get in the way (They are not).

meragrin_ 3y ago
> The problem is woodworkers will do dumb things like remove both of these things from their saws to do unsafe cuts. And they'll disable these new gadgets as well. The ones which work through conductivity have to have a bypass to be able to cut conductive material.
- anonymousab 3y ago
  Yes, but shifting the defaults from "something they take off because it is annoying every time they use it" to "something they turn off for specific types of cuts and otherwise never notice" can be a huge game changer for tool safety.
- huytersd 3y ago
  There’s no reason to do it though. The sawstop is in the body of the tablesaw. It doesn’t get in the way. The only reason I can see someone try to disable it is that really wet (and I mean soaking) wood might set it off.
huytersd 3y ago
Blade guards and riving knives are not enough. You would also need a kickback arrestor at the very least (even though the sawstop does not fix that issue).
- porkbeer 3y ago
  I have neither on mine and still have all my fingers. Weird.

drewrv 3y ago

I'm a fan of Stumpy Nubs but I disagree with his economic analysis here. Saw Stop has effectively had a monopoly on this type of saw, so of course they've been pricing it high. When Bosh came out with their own version it only made sense to price it at a comparable level to their only competitor. For them to massively undercut Saw Stop would leave money on the table. There will be some cost in re-engineering the cheap saws to handle a sensor and brake. But those costs will be amortized over time and the materials themselves will be incredibly cheap. We're talking about a capacitive sensor and a chunk of sacrificial metal. There will also probably be some cost saving innovation around the tech. Since Saw Stop is a premium brand coasting on patent-enforced monopoly they haven't had to invest in R&D the way Dewalt, Bosh, and Makita will.

gammarator 3y ago

> a risk to only myself against the value of my fingers? If you amputate your fingers, the rest of us bear the cost of your reconstructive surgery through higher health insurance premiums.

ddsgtuuu 3y ago
[flagged]

jcrawfordor 3y ago

I think you're on a reasonable path with your thinking there. Something I learned a couple of years ago is that table saws are particularly popular in the US. It varies from country to country, but in some places circular saws on tracks are the norm for the same purposes, especially on job sites. These aren't very popular in the US so you don't see the dedicated "track saws" in stores here that are common in the UK for example. You can pretty easily buy a Kregg Accu-Cut which is a similar idea that you bolt onto your existing circular saw, but it's a little bit annoying compared to purpose-built track saws that are a tidier design and often plunge cut as well so it's simpler to start the cut. But you can also get proper track saws online, and I'll probably pick one up eventually to replace my Accu-Cut. I don't think this is a perfect solution, getting cabinetry precision with a track saw might be tricky. But no one's doing that with a portable contractor table saw anyway. And the track saws are even more portable. I think the table saw concept is a better fit for larger, fixed tools, which I would guess probably have a better safety record than portables (larger table, cleaner environment, etc) even without sawstop technology. And I think it's more feasible to have good quality guards that will be less annoying on a fixed tool than a portable one, where they have a tendency to break off.

YeBanKo 3y ago
The US has space and pick up trucks that can fit plenty of table saws. Big tools in general are more accessible and affordable in the US. I have not seen as many people owning large tools like table saws, metal mills and lathes as in the US.
JamesSwift 3y ago
You also lose a lot of potential for 'repeatable cuts'
- huytersd 3y ago
  Exactly. That’s the main thing I use my table saw for. Absolutely accurate, repeated cuts.

huytersd 3y ago

Maybe but I presume the Chinese will jump in to subsidize that through mass production and we will all end up with saw stop enabled $250 contractor saws.

mattmaroon 3y ago

A circ saw is definitely not safer if you're ripping boards!

greedo 3y ago
A circ saw might not be, but a tracksaw is much safer for breaking down sheet goods. Just not as fast as blasting a sheet of plywood through a job site saw.
- mattmaroon 3y ago
  I just got one this week. Still in the box but I’m excited.
huytersd 3y ago
Why? If kickback happens the blade guard just closes up.