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India’s electric rickshaws

168 points by vinnyglennon 3y ago

ZeroGravitas 3y ago
Some recent figures from the IEA suggested that electric 2 and 3 wheelers were currently displacing more oil demand than electric cars. Almost all the stories seem to pitch this as a battle between the two camps, when I feel the obvious conclusion is that they'll accelerate each other as they both make people comfortable and familiar with electric motors and their various benefits (lower noise, pollution, running costs , oil imports etc.) They also pair well with electric busses and trains for last mile transport of people and electric trucks for last mile delivery of goods.
- Zigurd 3y ago
  Electric cars are a viable product because they are a direct replacement for the kinds of cars people in the developed world have been driving for decades. But, in order to be that direct 1:1 replacement they have to be heavy and expensive because they have a big battery. This is both another evolutionary path for EVs and it shows that EVs can be lighter, cheaper, and have a different sweet spot than electric cars.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    The trade off is either speed or safety - often both. Light EVs tend to still go too fast for safe operation - they are still heavy and fast enough to kill a lot of people. Heavy cars use a lot of that extra weight to make them safer for those inside.
  - RetroTechie 3y ago
    > Electric cars are a viable product because they are a direct replacement for the kinds of cars people in the developed world have been driving for decades. Which may not matter much. People care about getting from A to B, quick & affordable. With big cities getting more crowded (and thus, traffic jams & parking space at a premium), smaller 2- or 3-wheel electric vehicles have a leg up vs. full sized cars. Enough so that they replace [gasoline/diesel powered cars] faster than electric cars do. Purchase / maintanance costs, tax incentives etc also work in favor of these smaller / lighter vehicles.
    - Zigurd 3y ago
      I have high hopes for e-bikes displacing a lot of car trips. They solve almost all bike usability issues for all types of riders: Aero isn't a concern so you can have have an upright riding position. 10-15 kilos of groceries is easily accommodated. Hills are no problem. Alloy frames are cheap to make. Wheels can be very sturdy. Tires can have run-flat inserts. Losing momentum at stoplights isn't a problem. Outside of places where winter is long and snowy, e-bikes can be ideal.
      - lazide 3y ago
        The issue in India is that bicycles (and to a lesser extent motorcycles) are a death wish. Plenty used, because also cheap. But I’ve personally seen several seriously nasty accidents that would not have hurt anyone even with the minimal protection that an auto rickshaw provides. Also, women tend to get groped more on bicycles/bikes, and weather is a big problem. The shade on an auto rickshaw in Hyderabad, or when it rains in Bangalore are pretty handy.
        Zigurd 3y ago
        I agree there are going to be lots of market specific paths. Bikes are a death wish in many places in the US.
      - gambiting 3y ago
        Speaking from my UK perspective - an ebike would entirely replace my car for nearly all of my travelling needs, except that it's impossible to leave it safely in any public space - bicycle theft is absolutely rampant and prosecution is nearly zero, an expensive bike will be stolen, it's just a question of when not if. It's just a very solid obstacle to this becoming a major way of travelling unless something is done about bike theft.
        mixmastamyk 3y ago
        Is the theft problem common there with the heavier ones? i.e. the ones that need a pair of fit people to lift it into a truck and take it away?
ysofunny 3y ago
american's 4 wheel car shape, while incredibly safe is now an impediment to movility innovation
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
  I don't think it's as simple as "American vehicle trends are very safe" "ongoing pedestrian safety crisis in the US in which fatalities are at a 40-year high and the number of pedestrians killed has increased by 80 percent since hitting a low in 2009." https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/14/23960624/truck-suv-hood-height-pedestrian-death-report-iihs https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/14/23960624/truck-suv-hood-...
  - genter 3y ago
    American vehicles are very safe, for the people inside of them.
  - frumper 3y ago
    The overall number is quite small. Looking at the number going back to 70s and it's practically flat, while population has grown 50% since 1975. https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/pedestrians https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/pedes... This is hardly a crisis.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
      "practically flat" i.e. increasing again, erasing recent gains, is no great victory when the number in other comparable countries is still decreasing.
- throwaway4220 3y ago
  Also have to consider safety for the pedestrian which I think may be better for a 3 wheeler?
  - jajko 3y ago
boringg 3y ago
I have to imagine that all these new EV rickshaws are significantly cleaning up the air in countries like India, Vietnam and Thailand. Anyone on the ground floor confirm this? I recall the particulates in the air of decades past being super hard on the lungs.
- manasdaruka 3y ago
  While ev 3-wheelers have become quite common in India, I am not sure if they have led to any visible improvement in air quality. The earlier 3-wheelers were already CNG based and not as inefficient as petrol/gasoline powered ones. We are a developing country so I believe the growth in private cars is also offsetting any gains from ev 3-wheelers. To add to this, the particulates in the air are not entirely from this pollution, it is a sum of our terrain, geography, agricultural activities and pollution.
- pritambarhate 3y ago
  Yes like the sibling said, EVs are a fraction of the total number of vehicles on the Road. But adoption is growing every year. Hopefully in 10 years or so EVs will take over.
- shrikant 3y ago
  There's too many "legacy" vehicles still on the road for these to make a noticeable impact. I was in Bangalore recently and in various popular and upcoming parts of the city, it's basically unbreathable toxic sludge at rush hour, and only mildly OK otherwise.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Tons of other air pollution sources too, from trash fires to cooking. It would be nice to cut down on any one source, and cars are definitely a big problem, but not the only one.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  > are significantly cleaning up the air Nope. They're a menace. The batteries are dumped after they die out, and random alleyway factories will make batteries without caring about externalities or chemical disposal [0]. > Vietnam and Thailand Vietnam doesn't use 3 wheelers. Everyone buys a 2 wheeler. Thailand has transitioned to cars. You don't see "Tuktuks" outside of tourist centers anymore. A Toyota Hilux is the vehicle of choice in Thailand [0] - https://m.economictimes.com/industry/renewables/govt-to-take-serious-note-of-any-report-about-dumping-of-lithium-ion-battery-waste-nitin-gadkari/articleshow/105781076.cms https://m.economictimes.com/industry/renewables/govt-to-take...
alephnerd 3y ago
There isn't much overlap between 2/3 Wheeler EVs and EV cars in India. 3 Wheeler EVs are booming because the prices are very low and allow you start your own business by undercutting Auto Rickshaw unions. Your average auto rickshaw or e-rickshaw driver can make around $150-200/mo tax free and eligible for subsidies, making it more competitive than working at a factory ($250-300/mo but 5% income tax and not eligible for subsidies). This makes EV 3 wheelers attractive as it's an investment in a small business. On the other hand, EV cars aren't as popular in India yet due to range anxiety. Price doesn't factor as much because the tax incentives are made to incentivize EV cars (50% tax on disel/gas cars bit 5% tax on EV) and EVs are fairly affordable (a starting model Tata Tiago EV is around $9-10k) but no one trusts EV charging infra in India, so people are delaying purchases in order to buy a premium diesel car (eg. Toyota Fortuner, Mahindra Thar), eat the tax and buy a $4-6k Renault or Maruti ICE car for $9-10k after tax, or just keeps driving their gas car. This will change in 10 years, but the future is looking Hybrid, especially because Toyota is looking at expanding in India and lobbied a drastic tax cut [0] No one actually buys 2 wheeler EVs - you can save $1-2k more and buy a luxury 2 wheeler like a KTM Super Duke. Most electric 2 wheeler sales are driven by Ola (India's Uber/Doordash) subsidizing it's drivers and deliverers to buy an Ola manufactured 2 wheeler while working for Ola. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-lobbies-india-cut-hybrid-car-taxes-much-21-letter-2023-10-23/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota...
- dilawar 3y ago
  > No one actually buys 2 wheeler EVs - you can save $1-2k more and buy a luxury 2 wheeler like a KTM Super Duke 2 wheeler EV is not a rare sight in Bangalore. Probably 1 in 200 two wheelers is EV in my neighborhood.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Bangalore =/= India. Most of Bangalore's case is because of Ola subsidizing it's drivers to buy an Ola Bike [0][1]. For people who don't know, Ola is India's indigenous Uber+Doordash competitor. If you're price sensitive, you can always buy a used Hero Honda for around $500-1k, so cheaper than a 2 wheeler EV. If you aren't price conscious, you can buy a luxury bike like a KTM or a car. [0] - https://m.economictimes.com/industry/renewables/electric-two-wheeler-sales-surge-by-33-3-in-2023-24-ola-tops-chart/articleshow/108960905.cms https://m.economictimes.com/industry/renewables/electric-two... [1] - https://yourstory.com/2024/01/ola-electric-two-wheelers-bike-taxis-ecommerce-deliveries-bhavish-aggarwal https://yourstory.com/2024/01/ola-electric-two-wheelers-bike...
lifeisstillgood 3y ago
I have two teenagers both of whom are (in my opinion!) quite capable of safely handling something like an e-rickshaw around UK streets … as long as the rest of the traffic is also similarly light weight. In my “fantasy political manifesto”, I think roads should be (re)arranged so that every child can walk or cycle to school. My new amendment is to add local light electric traffic (those god-awful scooters) and something like these rickshaws, on physically seperate but parallel routes. Yes a 15 minute walkable city is nice, but a 15 minute drive opens up almost everything Pay for it by taxing the wealthy btw. Delenda est carthago
- brnt 3y ago
  > as long as the rest of the traffic is also similarly light weight. This. I'd love to use an electric bakfiets to move my kids and myself around, but I'd be doing it on roads where people are moving around 1-2 tonne pieces of steel inches from the bike... The safety engineering of these bikes (and rickshaws) are just nowhere near a car, and unfortunately in my environment I cannot ensure sufficient distance.
  - icoder 3y ago
    Is bakfiets an international word or are you Dutch, but if so aren't most Dutch roads/routes pretty safe for (electric) (bak)fietsen?
    - pastage 3y ago
      Bakfiets is used here and there internationaly, bakfiets.nl is a brand that was pretty dominant ten years ago.
    - brnt 3y ago
      I'm Dutch. Many Dutch roads are, but also here there's a difference between urban and more rural environments. My particular environment has fietsstroken on an N-weg (which is signed at 50 km/h, but people often drive faster) as only option. These stroken were painted before 2006, when their advised minimum width was set at 1.5 m (they're still 1 m). I don't even cycle comfortable there myself, and I've lived in France for years which also didn't have great infra or friendly motorists. I've tried to argue (and will continue to do so) with my municipality for a separate bike road (or trail even), but since we're in a valley and between private land owners and legally untouchable nature areas, that bike road would need to come out of a car road. Since everybody drives here, that's not going to happen unless fuel prices triple or something.
sn41 3y ago
E-Rickshaws are very unstable, and they are overloaded on North Indian roads, with people sitting even in the shared driver's seat, increasing the lopsided tilt. A distant relative of mine was killed when the e-rickshaw in which he was riding overturned and crushed him. They are easy to tip over, for example, when going over a pothole filled with water after rains. Traditional rickshaws have a wider base, and lower center of gravity. I think this particular design, popular all over north of India, is deadly. A safer design must be enforced.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  > A safer design must be enforced They won't. Bajaj Automotive lobbied for this as a Hail Mary to save them after Egypt, Thailand, and other markets began the process of phasing out 3 wheelers, and all political parties agree that it helps undercut the goondagiri Auto Rickshaw unions (eg. Maharashtra's CM Eknath Shinde started his career as an auto rickshaw goonda)
- pbmonster 3y ago
  > I think this particular design, popular all over north of India, is deadly. Do you have any insight as to why this is? Why are e-rickshaws more dangerous than ICE auto rickshaws or bicycle rickshaws? Shouldn't they be inherently more stable than both of those if you put the heavy battery in the floor? > They are easy to tip over, for example, when going over a pothole filled with water after rains. Do you know why they don't they use larger front wheels from off-road motorcycles (or bike wheels like the traditional bicycle rickshaws)?
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    > Why are e-rickshaws more dangerous than ICE auto rickshaws or bicycle rickshaws E-rickshaws need to keep costs down. This is because there are a lot of benefits of buying an auto rickshaw (eg. Union membership, not getting beat up with a tire iron, less bribes, access to parking). And the prices are already at $2.5-3k. This means most e-rickshaws need to be priced at $500-1.5k to be cost effective. This means these e-rickshaws are macgyverred in local factories using lead acid batteries, weaker frames, low speeds, etc.
zzzbra 3y ago
the move to electric should definitely accompany a change in the size of vehicles. because of their increased mass, electric cars are a lot more dangerous than ye olde combustion engine auto.
- Tagbert 3y ago
  that only applies within similar vehicle classes. A big-assed SUV is big and heavy whether ICEV or EV. A small sedan or hatchback EV is much lighter than ICEV SUVs and trucks.
gumby 3y ago
An interesting article, though a couple of trivial points bugged me. I suppose it’s due to the death of editors. > a partnership between Kakkar and his partner Sanjeev Pahwa’s cycle-rickshaw company and a traditional tuk-tuk manufacturer. I have never heard the term tuk-tuk used in India — I believe it’s a Thai word used in some other countries. Of course the rickshaw and, cycle rickshaw and auto-rickshaw were all imports via the British. But the term jumped out while reading the sentence. > the natural magnet for the motor and critical minerals for the battery, have to come from China because they do not naturally occur in India While it’s unsurprising that the (likely rare earth — India has iron) magnet et al have to be imported, it’s not like rare earths are rare, and a country the size of India and with its geography could find them, and eventually will (as the article says they are with lithium).
- alephnerd 3y ago
  The 3 wheeler e-rickshaws in India mostly use Lead Acid Batteries to keep costs down in order to undercut the incentives to buy an auto-rickshaw (eg. Union membership, not getting beat up with a tire iron, less bribes) 81% of all EV batteries in India are Lead-Acid [0] From a Lithium dependency standpoint, the Indian government made exclusivity deals with Australia, Argentina, and Chile [1][2] to mine Lithium and transfer lithium enrichment technology to Indian companies. That said, it would take a decade for this to pan out. > But the term jumped out while reading the sentence Shows the credibility (or lack thereof) of the article. There is an EV boom in India, but this article accidentally turned into a submarine article. [0] - https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2022/09/01/lead-in-driving-seat-for-indian-evs-lithium-closing-gap/ https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2022/09/01/lead-in-dr... [1] - https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/india-tapping-into-australia-for-more-lithium-mines/article67593334.ece https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/india-tapping-i... [2] - https://eastasiaforum.org/2024/01/27/indias-long-road-to-lithium/ https://eastasiaforum.org/2024/01/27/indias-long-road-to-lit...
- pfdietz 3y ago
  India has monazite; it's one of the reason they've had interest in thorium for thermal breeder reactors. Monazite is also an ore for REEs.
NelsonMinar 3y ago
We're gonna need a new word for "tuk-tuk" if the vehicles are silent. Won't miss the smell, either.
rasz 3y ago
>electric rickshaws Life is cheap in India, there are tons of videos featuring people falling off bikes/overturned rickshaws head first straight under the wheel of a truck.
- lazide 3y ago
  Yup, seen it first hand - among other things. Auto rickshaws are much better than bikes in this and several other fronts when in heavy traffic, but also get stuck way easier in said heavy traffic. There are reasons they are so popular though, no doubt!
jasonpeacock 3y ago
This is the real take-away: > Baran is not an engineer by education. He started working at the factory in 2017 as a helper — dusting, cleaning, and organizing items. A year later, he got the opportunity to upskill and get trained in welding by Chinese engineers. Nearly 80% of Baran’s 200 co-workers have followed a similar trajectory. “[They] taught us all the work,” Baran told Rest of World. “They taught us welding — how to put the parts and cut them. Over time, I picked up the work and got promoted. Now, our people can also teach these things.” They're teaching people to fish. It's not out-sourcing (from China into India), it's talent development. > “The link [with the Chinese suppliers] became so good that they also believed in us, invested money with us, and shared technology with us,” Kakkar said. Chinese engineers stayed “for days” to train welders like Baran when the factory first opened, he said. This is how you build partnerships and loyalty, and develop sustainable business relationships. > His company’s ethos, according to Kakkar, is “Make in India, but technology from China.” An apt summary of how we should be helping each other across the globe.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- 39896880 3y ago
  Toyota did this in the US and it has been rightfully, wildly successful for them.
dvh 3y ago
Why does chart start in 2014 at zero? What happened in 2014 that suddenly allowed EV to exist?
mandeepj 3y ago
I'm not sure why Revolt's EV bikes didn't pick up enough sales https://www.revoltmotors.com/ https://www.revoltmotors.com/
- fuzztester 3y ago
  Yes, interesting question. I saw one being used by a guy, in my area. Don't know how good it is, though.
  - fuzztester 3y ago
    Yet another HN loser of a downvoter bites the dust! Probably, being laid off, or even otherwise, they have no life, and nothing better to do, than downvote innocuous replies to comments. Way to go, dust eater! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_One_Bites_the_Dust https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_One_Bites_the_Dust P.S. check out the supposedly Satanic meaning of the words in reverse, Funny.
- inapis 3y ago
  Anecdotal experience but the bike looks ugly + had a subscription at one point in time (not sure if true today) for accessing basic features.
  - fransje26 3y ago
    > Anecdotal experience but the bike looks ugly It is true that rickshaws are the epitome of beautiful design..
    - inapis 3y ago
      Nowhere did I imply that.
kazinator 3y ago
Once you remove the "jin" from "jinrikisha", the vehicle can be electrified with substantially less irony.
llsf 3y ago
Last month I was traveling in Sri Lanka, and seeing all the tuk tuks zipping around, using those sub-optimal combustion engines, I thought that it would be little revolution when one would start selling EV rickshaws. Those vehicles are light, and do not do long drives (smaller battery needed), can charge once a day. It would have to change few habits, but combined with a swapping battery all Gogoro for instance, it could be a nice solution for public transportation.
techtellectual 3y ago
Just took one the other day! There is still some work to do in terms of passenger comfort when compared to traditional rickshaws, but am happy to see the widespread adoption...
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
Abishek_Muthian 3y ago
I'm from Southern India and I recently came to Sonipat (The place featured in the article) and was surprised to see these e-rickshaws all over the place, but what surprised me was how lean the rikshaw was. It can utmost fit two adult passengers and so they zip past the traffic like a motorbike; I guess that's because they're rikshaws and not e-autos (tuk-tuk)[1] These little e-rikshaws seems to be the main transportation mode for local people here. I saw different kinds of these lean e-rikshaws in New Delhi too. [1] https://www.bajajauto.com/three-wheelers/ev-re https://www.bajajauto.com/three-wheelers/ev-re

168 points by vinnyglennon 3y ago

Some recent figures from the IEA suggested that electric 2 and 3 wheelers were currently displacing more oil demand than electric cars. Almost all the stories seem to pitch this as a battle between the two camps, when I feel the obvious conclusion is that they'll accelerate each other as they both make people comfortable and familiar with electric motors and their various benefits (lower noise, pollution, running costs , oil imports etc.) They also pair well with electric busses and trains for last mile transport of people and electric trucks for last mile delivery of goods.

Zigurd 3y ago
Electric cars are a viable product because they are a direct replacement for the kinds of cars people in the developed world have been driving for decades. But, in order to be that direct 1:1 replacement they have to be heavy and expensive because they have a big battery. This is both another evolutionary path for EVs and it shows that EVs can be lighter, cheaper, and have a different sweet spot than electric cars.
- bluGill 3y ago
  The trade off is either speed or safety - often both. Light EVs tend to still go too fast for safe operation - they are still heavy and fast enough to kill a lot of people. Heavy cars use a lot of that extra weight to make them safer for those inside.
- RetroTechie 3y ago
  > Electric cars are a viable product because they are a direct replacement for the kinds of cars people in the developed world have been driving for decades. Which may not matter much. People care about getting from A to B, quick & affordable. With big cities getting more crowded (and thus, traffic jams & parking space at a premium), smaller 2- or 3-wheel electric vehicles have a leg up vs. full sized cars. Enough so that they replace [gasoline/diesel powered cars] faster than electric cars do. Purchase / maintanance costs, tax incentives etc also work in favor of these smaller / lighter vehicles.
  - Zigurd 3y ago
    I have high hopes for e-bikes displacing a lot of car trips. They solve almost all bike usability issues for all types of riders: Aero isn't a concern so you can have have an upright riding position. 10-15 kilos of groceries is easily accommodated. Hills are no problem. Alloy frames are cheap to make. Wheels can be very sturdy. Tires can have run-flat inserts. Losing momentum at stoplights isn't a problem. Outside of places where winter is long and snowy, e-bikes can be ideal.
    - lazide 3y ago
      The issue in India is that bicycles (and to a lesser extent motorcycles) are a death wish. Plenty used, because also cheap. But I’ve personally seen several seriously nasty accidents that would not have hurt anyone even with the minimal protection that an auto rickshaw provides. Also, women tend to get groped more on bicycles/bikes, and weather is a big problem. The shade on an auto rickshaw in Hyderabad, or when it rains in Bangalore are pretty handy.
      - Zigurd 3y ago
        I agree there are going to be lots of market specific paths. Bikes are a death wish in many places in the US.
    - gambiting 3y ago
      Speaking from my UK perspective - an ebike would entirely replace my car for nearly all of my travelling needs, except that it's impossible to leave it safely in any public space - bicycle theft is absolutely rampant and prosecution is nearly zero, an expensive bike will be stolen, it's just a question of when not if. It's just a very solid obstacle to this becoming a major way of travelling unless something is done about bike theft.
      - mixmastamyk 3y ago
        Is the theft problem common there with the heavier ones? i.e. the ones that need a pair of fit people to lift it into a truck and take it away?

ysofunny 3y ago

american's 4 wheel car shape, while incredibly safe is now an impediment to movility innovation

SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
I don't think it's as simple as "American vehicle trends are very safe" "ongoing pedestrian safety crisis in the US in which fatalities are at a 40-year high and the number of pedestrians killed has increased by 80 percent since hitting a low in 2009." https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/14/23960624/truck-suv-hood-height-pedestrian-death-report-iihs https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/14/23960624/truck-suv-hood-...
- genter 3y ago
  American vehicles are very safe, for the people inside of them.
- frumper 3y ago
  The overall number is quite small. Looking at the number going back to 70s and it's practically flat, while population has grown 50% since 1975. https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/pedestrians https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/pedes... This is hardly a crisis.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
    "practically flat" i.e. increasing again, erasing recent gains, is no great victory when the number in other comparable countries is still decreasing.
throwaway4220 3y ago
Also have to consider safety for the pedestrian which I think may be better for a 3 wheeler?
- jajko 3y ago

boringg 3y ago

I have to imagine that all these new EV rickshaws are significantly cleaning up the air in countries like India, Vietnam and Thailand. Anyone on the ground floor confirm this? I recall the particulates in the air of decades past being super hard on the lungs.

manasdaruka 3y ago
While ev 3-wheelers have become quite common in India, I am not sure if they have led to any visible improvement in air quality. The earlier 3-wheelers were already CNG based and not as inefficient as petrol/gasoline powered ones. We are a developing country so I believe the growth in private cars is also offsetting any gains from ev 3-wheelers. To add to this, the particulates in the air are not entirely from this pollution, it is a sum of our terrain, geography, agricultural activities and pollution.
pritambarhate 3y ago
Yes like the sibling said, EVs are a fraction of the total number of vehicles on the Road. But adoption is growing every year. Hopefully in 10 years or so EVs will take over.
shrikant 3y ago
There's too many "legacy" vehicles still on the road for these to make a noticeable impact. I was in Bangalore recently and in various popular and upcoming parts of the city, it's basically unbreathable toxic sludge at rush hour, and only mildly OK otherwise.
- lazide 3y ago
  Tons of other air pollution sources too, from trash fires to cooking. It would be nice to cut down on any one source, and cars are definitely a big problem, but not the only one.
alephnerd 3y ago
> are significantly cleaning up the air Nope. They're a menace. The batteries are dumped after they die out, and random alleyway factories will make batteries without caring about externalities or chemical disposal [0]. > Vietnam and Thailand Vietnam doesn't use 3 wheelers. Everyone buys a 2 wheeler. Thailand has transitioned to cars. You don't see "Tuktuks" outside of tourist centers anymore. A Toyota Hilux is the vehicle of choice in Thailand [0] - https://m.economictimes.com/industry/renewables/govt-to-take-serious-note-of-any-report-about-dumping-of-lithium-ion-battery-waste-nitin-gadkari/articleshow/105781076.cms https://m.economictimes.com/industry/renewables/govt-to-take...

alephnerd 3y ago

There isn't much overlap between 2/3 Wheeler EVs and EV cars in India. 3 Wheeler EVs are booming because the prices are very low and allow you start your own business by undercutting Auto Rickshaw unions. Your average auto rickshaw or e-rickshaw driver can make around $150-200/mo tax free and eligible for subsidies, making it more competitive than working at a factory ($250-300/mo but 5% income tax and not eligible for subsidies). This makes EV 3 wheelers attractive as it's an investment in a small business. On the other hand, EV cars aren't as popular in India yet due to range anxiety. Price doesn't factor as much because the tax incentives are made to incentivize EV cars (50% tax on disel/gas cars bit 5% tax on EV) and EVs are fairly affordable (a starting model Tata Tiago EV is around $9-10k) but no one trusts EV charging infra in India, so people are delaying purchases in order to buy a premium diesel car (eg. Toyota Fortuner, Mahindra Thar), eat the tax and buy a $4-6k Renault or Maruti ICE car for $9-10k after tax, or just keeps driving their gas car. This will change in 10 years, but the future is looking Hybrid, especially because Toyota is looking at expanding in India and lobbied a drastic tax cut [0] No one actually buys 2 wheeler EVs - you can save $1-2k more and buy a luxury 2 wheeler like a KTM Super Duke. Most electric 2 wheeler sales are driven by Ola (India's Uber/Doordash) subsidizing it's drivers and deliverers to buy an Ola manufactured 2 wheeler while working for Ola. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-lobbies-india-cut-hybrid-car-taxes-much-21-letter-2023-10-23/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota...

dilawar 3y ago
> No one actually buys 2 wheeler EVs - you can save $1-2k more and buy a luxury 2 wheeler like a KTM Super Duke 2 wheeler EV is not a rare sight in Bangalore. Probably 1 in 200 two wheelers is EV in my neighborhood.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  Bangalore =/= India. Most of Bangalore's case is because of Ola subsidizing it's drivers to buy an Ola Bike [0][1]. For people who don't know, Ola is India's indigenous Uber+Doordash competitor. If you're price sensitive, you can always buy a used Hero Honda for around $500-1k, so cheaper than a 2 wheeler EV. If you aren't price conscious, you can buy a luxury bike like a KTM or a car. [0] - https://m.economictimes.com/industry/renewables/electric-two-wheeler-sales-surge-by-33-3-in-2023-24-ola-tops-chart/articleshow/108960905.cms https://m.economictimes.com/industry/renewables/electric-two... [1] - https://yourstory.com/2024/01/ola-electric-two-wheelers-bike-taxis-ecommerce-deliveries-bhavish-aggarwal https://yourstory.com/2024/01/ola-electric-two-wheelers-bike...

lifeisstillgood 3y ago

I have two teenagers both of whom are (in my opinion!) quite capable of safely handling something like an e-rickshaw around UK streets … as long as the rest of the traffic is also similarly light weight. In my “fantasy political manifesto”, I think roads should be (re)arranged so that every child can walk or cycle to school. My new amendment is to add local light electric traffic (those god-awful scooters) and something like these rickshaws, on physically seperate but parallel routes. Yes a 15 minute walkable city is nice, but a 15 minute drive opens up almost everything Pay for it by taxing the wealthy btw. Delenda est carthago

brnt 3y ago
> as long as the rest of the traffic is also similarly light weight. This. I'd love to use an electric bakfiets to move my kids and myself around, but I'd be doing it on roads where people are moving around 1-2 tonne pieces of steel inches from the bike... The safety engineering of these bikes (and rickshaws) are just nowhere near a car, and unfortunately in my environment I cannot ensure sufficient distance.
- icoder 3y ago
  Is bakfiets an international word or are you Dutch, but if so aren't most Dutch roads/routes pretty safe for (electric) (bak)fietsen?
  - pastage 3y ago
    Bakfiets is used here and there internationaly, bakfiets.nl is a brand that was pretty dominant ten years ago.
  - brnt 3y ago
    I'm Dutch. Many Dutch roads are, but also here there's a difference between urban and more rural environments. My particular environment has fietsstroken on an N-weg (which is signed at 50 km/h, but people often drive faster) as only option. These stroken were painted before 2006, when their advised minimum width was set at 1.5 m (they're still 1 m). I don't even cycle comfortable there myself, and I've lived in France for years which also didn't have great infra or friendly motorists. I've tried to argue (and will continue to do so) with my municipality for a separate bike road (or trail even), but since we're in a valley and between private land owners and legally untouchable nature areas, that bike road would need to come out of a car road. Since everybody drives here, that's not going to happen unless fuel prices triple or something.

sn41 3y ago

E-Rickshaws are very unstable, and they are overloaded on North Indian roads, with people sitting even in the shared driver's seat, increasing the lopsided tilt. A distant relative of mine was killed when the e-rickshaw in which he was riding overturned and crushed him. They are easy to tip over, for example, when going over a pothole filled with water after rains. Traditional rickshaws have a wider base, and lower center of gravity. I think this particular design, popular all over north of India, is deadly. A safer design must be enforced.

alephnerd 3y ago
> A safer design must be enforced They won't. Bajaj Automotive lobbied for this as a Hail Mary to save them after Egypt, Thailand, and other markets began the process of phasing out 3 wheelers, and all political parties agree that it helps undercut the goondagiri Auto Rickshaw unions (eg. Maharashtra's CM Eknath Shinde started his career as an auto rickshaw goonda)
pbmonster 3y ago
> I think this particular design, popular all over north of India, is deadly. Do you have any insight as to why this is? Why are e-rickshaws more dangerous than ICE auto rickshaws or bicycle rickshaws? Shouldn't they be inherently more stable than both of those if you put the heavy battery in the floor? > They are easy to tip over, for example, when going over a pothole filled with water after rains. Do you know why they don't they use larger front wheels from off-road motorcycles (or bike wheels like the traditional bicycle rickshaws)?
- alephnerd 3y ago
  > Why are e-rickshaws more dangerous than ICE auto rickshaws or bicycle rickshaws E-rickshaws need to keep costs down. This is because there are a lot of benefits of buying an auto rickshaw (eg. Union membership, not getting beat up with a tire iron, less bribes, access to parking). And the prices are already at $2.5-3k. This means most e-rickshaws need to be priced at $500-1.5k to be cost effective. This means these e-rickshaws are macgyverred in local factories using lead acid batteries, weaker frames, low speeds, etc.

zzzbra 3y ago

the move to electric should definitely accompany a change in the size of vehicles. because of their increased mass, electric cars are a lot more dangerous than ye olde combustion engine auto.

Tagbert 3y ago
that only applies within similar vehicle classes. A big-assed SUV is big and heavy whether ICEV or EV. A small sedan or hatchback EV is much lighter than ICEV SUVs and trucks.

gumby 3y ago

An interesting article, though a couple of trivial points bugged me. I suppose it’s due to the death of editors. > a partnership between Kakkar and his partner Sanjeev Pahwa’s cycle-rickshaw company and a traditional tuk-tuk manufacturer. I have never heard the term tuk-tuk used in India — I believe it’s a Thai word used in some other countries. Of course the rickshaw and, cycle rickshaw and auto-rickshaw were all imports via the British. But the term jumped out while reading the sentence. > the natural magnet for the motor and critical minerals for the battery, have to come from China because they do not naturally occur in India While it’s unsurprising that the (likely rare earth — India has iron) magnet et al have to be imported, it’s not like rare earths are rare, and a country the size of India and with its geography could find them, and eventually will (as the article says they are with lithium).

alephnerd 3y ago
The 3 wheeler e-rickshaws in India mostly use Lead Acid Batteries to keep costs down in order to undercut the incentives to buy an auto-rickshaw (eg. Union membership, not getting beat up with a tire iron, less bribes) 81% of all EV batteries in India are Lead-Acid [0] From a Lithium dependency standpoint, the Indian government made exclusivity deals with Australia, Argentina, and Chile [1][2] to mine Lithium and transfer lithium enrichment technology to Indian companies. That said, it would take a decade for this to pan out. > But the term jumped out while reading the sentence Shows the credibility (or lack thereof) of the article. There is an EV boom in India, but this article accidentally turned into a submarine article. [0] - https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2022/09/01/lead-in-driving-seat-for-indian-evs-lithium-closing-gap/ https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2022/09/01/lead-in-dr... [1] - https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/india-tapping-into-australia-for-more-lithium-mines/article67593334.ece https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/india-tapping-i... [2] - https://eastasiaforum.org/2024/01/27/indias-long-road-to-lithium/ https://eastasiaforum.org/2024/01/27/indias-long-road-to-lit...
pfdietz 3y ago
India has monazite; it's one of the reason they've had interest in thorium for thermal breeder reactors. Monazite is also an ore for REEs.

NelsonMinar 3y ago

We're gonna need a new word for "tuk-tuk" if the vehicles are silent. Won't miss the smell, either.

rasz 3y ago

>electric rickshaws Life is cheap in India, there are tons of videos featuring people falling off bikes/overturned rickshaws head first straight under the wheel of a truck.

lazide 3y ago
Yup, seen it first hand - among other things. Auto rickshaws are much better than bikes in this and several other fronts when in heavy traffic, but also get stuck way easier in said heavy traffic. There are reasons they are so popular though, no doubt!

jasonpeacock 3y ago

This is the real take-away: > Baran is not an engineer by education. He started working at the factory in 2017 as a helper — dusting, cleaning, and organizing items. A year later, he got the opportunity to upskill and get trained in welding by Chinese engineers. Nearly 80% of Baran’s 200 co-workers have followed a similar trajectory. “[They] taught us all the work,” Baran told Rest of World. “They taught us welding — how to put the parts and cut them. Over time, I picked up the work and got promoted. Now, our people can also teach these things.” They're teaching people to fish. It's not out-sourcing (from China into India), it's talent development. > “The link [with the Chinese suppliers] became so good that they also believed in us, invested money with us, and shared technology with us,” Kakkar said. Chinese engineers stayed “for days” to train welders like Baran when the factory first opened, he said. This is how you build partnerships and loyalty, and develop sustainable business relationships. > His company’s ethos, according to Kakkar, is “Make in India, but technology from China.” An apt summary of how we should be helping each other across the globe.

deleted 3y ago
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39896880 3y ago
Toyota did this in the US and it has been rightfully, wildly successful for them.

dvh 3y ago

Why does chart start in 2014 at zero? What happened in 2014 that suddenly allowed EV to exist?

mandeepj 3y ago

I'm not sure why Revolt's EV bikes didn't pick up enough sales https://www.revoltmotors.com/ https://www.revoltmotors.com/

fuzztester 3y ago
Yes, interesting question. I saw one being used by a guy, in my area. Don't know how good it is, though.
- fuzztester 3y ago
  Yet another HN loser of a downvoter bites the dust! Probably, being laid off, or even otherwise, they have no life, and nothing better to do, than downvote innocuous replies to comments. Way to go, dust eater! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_One_Bites_the_Dust https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_One_Bites_the_Dust P.S. check out the supposedly Satanic meaning of the words in reverse, Funny.
inapis 3y ago
Anecdotal experience but the bike looks ugly + had a subscription at one point in time (not sure if true today) for accessing basic features.
- fransje26 3y ago
  > Anecdotal experience but the bike looks ugly It is true that rickshaws are the epitome of beautiful design..
  - inapis 3y ago
    Nowhere did I imply that.

kazinator 3y ago

Once you remove the "jin" from "jinrikisha", the vehicle can be electrified with substantially less irony.

llsf 3y ago

Last month I was traveling in Sri Lanka, and seeing all the tuk tuks zipping around, using those sub-optimal combustion engines, I thought that it would be little revolution when one would start selling EV rickshaws. Those vehicles are light, and do not do long drives (smaller battery needed), can charge once a day. It would have to change few habits, but combined with a swapping battery all Gogoro for instance, it could be a nice solution for public transportation.

techtellectual 3y ago

Just took one the other day! There is still some work to do in terms of passenger comfort when compared to traditional rickshaws, but am happy to see the widespread adoption...

aaron695 3y ago

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Abishek_Muthian 3y ago

I'm from Southern India and I recently came to Sonipat (The place featured in the article) and was surprised to see these e-rickshaws all over the place, but what surprised me was how lean the rikshaw was. It can utmost fit two adult passengers and so they zip past the traffic like a motorbike; I guess that's because they're rikshaws and not e-autos (tuk-tuk)[1] These little e-rikshaws seems to be the main transportation mode for local people here. I saw different kinds of these lean e-rikshaws in New Delhi too. [1] https://www.bajajauto.com/three-wheelers/ev-re https://www.bajajauto.com/three-wheelers/ev-re