10 ms·

BYD is launching its next-gen Blade EV battery – more range and even lower cost

66 points by hunglee2 3y ago

gardnr 3y ago
> By using lithium-iron-phosphate as the cathode material, BYD can make the batteries much cheaper. How is LiFePO₄ "next-gen"?
- greenthrow 3y ago
  The previous gen was also LFP. That's not what they are saying makes this a new gen. They are claiming improvements to basically every relevant metric in this LFP blade vs the previous one.
  - h0l0cube 3y ago
    As per TFA: > The company’s latest Blade batteries have an energy density of up to 150Wh/kg. BYD’s next-gen EV battery is expected to reach upwards of 190Wh/kg. > This could enable fully electric models to exceed 621 miles (1,000 km) CLTC range, which would be the highest among LFP batteries. The report claims BYD will release the new battery as soon as August 2024.
    - rob74 3y ago
      It's nice that Electrek mentions the 621 (621, not 600 or 620!) miles first, when it's obvious that the figure was originally in kilometers - a nice round number that should be enough to put anyone's range anxiety to rest...
    - timmg 3y ago
      A quick Google search claims that Tesla’s “4680” battery has an energy density of 244 to 296 Wh/kg. I don’t know enough about the industry to know if these numbers are right. If they are, seems like BYD is pretty far behind Tesla. Anyone know if this is right? Or what I’m missing?
      - CorrectHorseBat 3y ago
        Tesla's battery is NCM, not LFP
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        They use BYD LFPs in some low end Model 3/Ys, especially in China but increasingly in the US.
        rstuart4133 3y ago
        It was NCM for a reason: LFP was patented in the USA. The patents applied to China too of course, but China ignored them. But now patent has expired Tesla can sell LFP into the USA legally it's happening. Off topic rant. This is a fine example of the patent system hurting rather than helping a country. It's not the idea of rewarding the person taking a risk getting a reward for it that's the problem, it's more than a single term (20 years) works for all areas. It's probably fine for pharmacy. But that moves at a snails pace, and generally patents don't overlap. Batteries don't move much faster than pharmacy, but nonetheless the USA has almost no hope of overtaking China in LFP now and the USA in invented the technology. In fast moving industries like computers the current patent system the current patent is a disaster.
        h0l0cube 3y ago
        Interestingly, IP enforcement relies on globalization, which has been on the wane since Xi cemented his autocratic powers and the US began its trade war under the Trump administration
      - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
        Tesla uses some of the current gen BYD batteries in their low end models. So they're good enough for some uses, but energy density was a stat they trailed current battery tech on. Any improvement in that stat just expands the area where the trade off makes sense. This article claims a quarter of Model Y in Germany use the LFP battery from BYD, and covers the pros and cons: https://www.electrive.com/2024/02/01/what-can-the-tesla-model-y-with-byd-battery-do/ https://www.electrive.com/2024/02/01/what-can-the-tesla-mode...
zith 3y ago
Perhaps semi-off topic, but it will be interesting to see if silicon anodes (like https://www.silanano.com https://www.silanano.com develops) will take off. They promise up to 20% increased capacity from switching from carbon anodes alone, which sounds amazing.
lmpdev 3y ago
Off topic but I’m thinking about the EOL for designs like this: Are companies like BYD incentivised at all to ensure their chemistries are robust enough to be reused after their lifespan in a vehicle? Worried baked in planned obsolescence will start to influence chemistry decisions Is there a decent marketplace for used Lithium packs yet? I have sources for used packs but they are very much ad hoc I can only see lithium power as sustainable if we genuinely try to make a circular economy at all levels of the supply chain
- janice1999 3y ago
  Battery "passports" to enable a 'second life' market have been a major point of discussion in the industry for a few years now. I'm not sure what the current state of traceability really is but manufacturers are certainly interested. I don't think planned obsolescence is a real concern. The EU and other government bodies have been pushing for usability for a while now and a market for used packs for energy storage is looking more realistic.
- xyst 3y ago
  Better question to ask: Are current EV companies even properly recycling the batteries? The lithium itself is recyclable. However what’s the process for it? Is it so labor intensive that it makes recycling not worth it? Remember: we were sold on the infinite recyclability of plastics. Yet look how that’s turned out. Industry did their own studies (in the 70s…), found recycling to not be cost effective (sorting issue, different types of plastic not recyclable, limited lifetime of plastic such that it could only be recycled a couple of times before becoming useless). Yet these companies still pushed this junk on us and we continue to live with those repercussions today. Also battery packs are often packed with copious amounts of glue/adhesive and other items that don’t appear to be recyclable. Does that make the recycling process more difficult? As a battery pack in general, what can be recovered? What goes to the landfill?
  - vbezhenar 3y ago
    > we were sold on the infinite recyclability of plastics Really? I thought plastic won because it's cheap. I never heard about anyone recycling it.
willcipriano 3y ago
Thank god we have a tariff to protect us from these lower cost vehicles.
- tryptophan 3y ago
  Yeah, having to buy something other than the Ford™ Giga-MAX EXTREME FREEDOM F150-THUNDERBOLT for 95k would be awful.
  - jhayward 3y ago
    You mean like Ford's Mustang Mach-E, that starts at $40,000? I'm not sure what purpose the hyperbole serves here.
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      If that's competitive why do they need a tariff?
    - 0cVlTeIATBs 3y ago
      For comparison, BYD's are in the $10k range https://electrek.co/2024/03/06/byd-launches-cheaper-seagull-ev-9700-price/ https://electrek.co/2024/03/06/byd-launches-cheaper-seagull-...
      - adriancr 3y ago
        Those 10K range cars are much lower quality/battery/finish/size/etc... and that's before any shipping, taxes and likely adding any safety features required to adhere to rules to US/EU market.
        aaomidi 3y ago
        > quality Hmm. Not sure I agree with you there. American cars aren’t particularly known for being high quality.
sheeshkebab 3y ago
The article is written with errors and sounds like it was created by a bot, complemented with some fake quotes… I guess the battery is ok or is the point here to push BYD cars?
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
  > here to push BYD cars? BYD batteries, actually. Which are used in cars made by BYD, and some of the vehicles made by several other brands, including Hyundai, Toyota, Kia, Lincoln and Tesla. Source: https://carnewschina.com/2023/09/08/mercedes-benz-to-use-byd-blade-batteries-in-their-evs-according-to-report https://carnewschina.com/2023/09/08/mercedes-benz-to-use-byd... https://electrek.co/2024/02/15/byd-signs-deal-ford-gm-supplier-use-lfp-battery-packs/ https://electrek.co/2024/02/15/byd-signs-deal-ford-gm-suppli... BYD was a battery maker before they were a car maker. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Company
xyst 3y ago
> which is expected to enable nearly 1,200 miles (2,000 km) CLTC range. That’s fucking huge. Bye bye range anxiety. Drive across TX (El Paso to Texarkana) and more without bothering to recharge or turning off creature comforts (ie, AC). Let’s just hope this Chinese company is not over promising
- Thorrez 3y ago
  Those specific numbers were about a plug-in hybrid. So with gas power.
  - Jedd 3y ago
    > Those specific numbers were about a plug-in hybrid. So with gas power. Where are you seeing that? I can't find 'hybrid' in TFA at all. Admittedly it's a bit confusing that Americans stick with miles, and are also the only culture on the planet to call the (very much a liquid) petrol 'gas', but the reference in TFA was pretty unambiguous: "This could enable fully electric models to exceed 621 miles (1,000 km) CLTC range."
    - CorrectHorseBat 3y ago
      >The comments come with its next-gen DM-i (PHEV) system due out soon, which is expected to enable nearly 1,200 miles (2,000 km) CLTC range.
- lm28469 3y ago
  > That’s fucking huge. Bye bye range anxiety I wish people were rational and didn't "need" a 2000km range car to not develop "anxiety" when they do like 40km per day on average
chucke1992 3y ago
Their cars also look good. I will probably consider BYD for my next car. I don't like not having dashboard in front of me (like Tesla is doing right now).
- greenthrow 3y ago
  The part you're referring to is called an instrument cluster traditionally, or more modernly, a driver's display. Teslas do have dashboards, despite their commitment to minimalism. :)
  - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
    I prefer the term "Binnacle"
- amou234 3y ago
  By buying BYD, you are supporting the Chinese government, which is actively supporting Russia [1] By buying BYD, you are supporting Chinese government's deep subsidization of BYD and its heavy loss per vehicle, to dump on and destroy US/Europe/Japan auto industries and its labor forces [1]https://www.dw.com/en/china-and-russia-agree-to-boost-ties-in-opposition-to-west/a-68773085 https://www.dw.com/en/china-and-russia-agree-to-boost-ties-i...
  - r00fus 3y ago
    While by supporting ICE vehicles and oil companies you are supporting the US government’s genocidal support of Israel. The whataboutism works two ways. The better way to “fight” China is to lobby your government to actually compete and build its own manufacturing base.
    - Rinzler89 3y ago
      You can build a manufacturing base, but can you also "build" the workforce willing to work for manufacturing sector wages while keeping the prices competitive?
poulpy123 3y ago
related: is there any second hand market for electric car ? knowing that the battery is a consumable ? I'm able to buy a very good used car for 5-10k€, I'm afraid I will never be able to afford an e-car without second hand market
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  There are quite a few Teslas available in my area that are a couple years old; presumably, 2-3 year leases ending. Their batteries are likely to be in pretty good condition, and if you buy them from Tesla there's a warranty.
- shmatt 3y ago
  That 5000 euro car is going to need a lot more maintenance than a used electric car
  - catmanjan 3y ago
    Until mechanics are willing to replace individual cells in a battery pack there is the looming risk of a very high cost repair...
  - kalleboo 3y ago
    I'll need more frequent, but far cheaper maintenance. The current electric cars are all overengineered luxury cars in order to hit a profit margin and are extremely expensive to repair many normally minor faults. It's fine if you're the original owner under a warranty but a second hand buyer beware. Theoretically electric cars should be super simple and reliable and have very cheap repairs, but those cars aren't being made by anyone today (maybe the Nissan Leaf?)
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  You'll likely never be able to buy an electric car for much under $5k, because it'll have a scrap value of $3-$5k. $5k-$10k implies a >10 year old car and EV's only started shipping in good volume in the last year or two.
georgeburdell 3y ago
CLTC range is Chinese funny numbers and will underperform EPA mileage (which already overstate range particularly in cool weather) Unrelated but I’ve taken a very hard stance personally on buying anything Chinese and have just accepted that it may mean being stuck with inferior technology. Not only are they dumping their high tech goods on the international markets, but I believe money sent over there will come back as bullets for my children or grandchildren.
- greenthrow 3y ago
  What did you type this comment on then?
  - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
    Heh. Gotcha. https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/ https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/
    - greenthrow 3y ago
      Not the same at all. He said he doesn't use anything from China.
- 14 3y ago
  Well my children are already destined to be slaves to the system with the current cost of living so personally I would buy a cheap Chinese car. Not that I want to. I think it will be a good thing because then perhaps are home grown car manufacturers will see the writing and start offering affordable to the masses cars. We don’t need a thousand features in a car. Power windows, touch screens, self driving and every other tech that adds to the cost can take a bike. I just want a cheap bare bones electric car and local car manufacturers haven’t figured this out so I will risk Chinese bullets as I already have to choose when it comes to gas or higher quality food choices. Head of lettuce reaching $5 these days.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
Freedom2 3y ago
Okay but the Cybertruck can soon have an addon that lets you drive in water. Which do we all prefer here?

66 points by hunglee2 3y ago

> By using lithium-iron-phosphate as the cathode material, BYD can make the batteries much cheaper. How is LiFePO₄ "next-gen"?

greenthrow 3y ago
The previous gen was also LFP. That's not what they are saying makes this a new gen. They are claiming improvements to basically every relevant metric in this LFP blade vs the previous one.
- h0l0cube 3y ago
  As per TFA: > The company’s latest Blade batteries have an energy density of up to 150Wh/kg. BYD’s next-gen EV battery is expected to reach upwards of 190Wh/kg. > This could enable fully electric models to exceed 621 miles (1,000 km) CLTC range, which would be the highest among LFP batteries. The report claims BYD will release the new battery as soon as August 2024.
  - rob74 3y ago
    It's nice that Electrek mentions the 621 (621, not 600 or 620!) miles first, when it's obvious that the figure was originally in kilometers - a nice round number that should be enough to put anyone's range anxiety to rest...
  - timmg 3y ago
    A quick Google search claims that Tesla’s “4680” battery has an energy density of 244 to 296 Wh/kg. I don’t know enough about the industry to know if these numbers are right. If they are, seems like BYD is pretty far behind Tesla. Anyone know if this is right? Or what I’m missing?
    - CorrectHorseBat 3y ago
      Tesla's battery is NCM, not LFP
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        They use BYD LFPs in some low end Model 3/Ys, especially in China but increasingly in the US.
      - rstuart4133 3y ago
        It was NCM for a reason: LFP was patented in the USA. The patents applied to China too of course, but China ignored them. But now patent has expired Tesla can sell LFP into the USA legally it's happening. Off topic rant. This is a fine example of the patent system hurting rather than helping a country. It's not the idea of rewarding the person taking a risk getting a reward for it that's the problem, it's more than a single term (20 years) works for all areas. It's probably fine for pharmacy. But that moves at a snails pace, and generally patents don't overlap. Batteries don't move much faster than pharmacy, but nonetheless the USA has almost no hope of overtaking China in LFP now and the USA in invented the technology. In fast moving industries like computers the current patent system the current patent is a disaster.
        h0l0cube 3y ago
        Interestingly, IP enforcement relies on globalization, which has been on the wane since Xi cemented his autocratic powers and the US began its trade war under the Trump administration
    - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
      Tesla uses some of the current gen BYD batteries in their low end models. So they're good enough for some uses, but energy density was a stat they trailed current battery tech on. Any improvement in that stat just expands the area where the trade off makes sense. This article claims a quarter of Model Y in Germany use the LFP battery from BYD, and covers the pros and cons: https://www.electrive.com/2024/02/01/what-can-the-tesla-model-y-with-byd-battery-do/ https://www.electrive.com/2024/02/01/what-can-the-tesla-mode...

zith 3y ago

Perhaps semi-off topic, but it will be interesting to see if silicon anodes (like https://www.silanano.com https://www.silanano.com develops) will take off. They promise up to 20% increased capacity from switching from carbon anodes alone, which sounds amazing.

lmpdev 3y ago

Off topic but I’m thinking about the EOL for designs like this: Are companies like BYD incentivised at all to ensure their chemistries are robust enough to be reused after their lifespan in a vehicle? Worried baked in planned obsolescence will start to influence chemistry decisions Is there a decent marketplace for used Lithium packs yet? I have sources for used packs but they are very much ad hoc I can only see lithium power as sustainable if we genuinely try to make a circular economy at all levels of the supply chain

janice1999 3y ago
Battery "passports" to enable a 'second life' market have been a major point of discussion in the industry for a few years now. I'm not sure what the current state of traceability really is but manufacturers are certainly interested. I don't think planned obsolescence is a real concern. The EU and other government bodies have been pushing for usability for a while now and a market for used packs for energy storage is looking more realistic.
xyst 3y ago
Better question to ask: Are current EV companies even properly recycling the batteries? The lithium itself is recyclable. However what’s the process for it? Is it so labor intensive that it makes recycling not worth it? Remember: we were sold on the infinite recyclability of plastics. Yet look how that’s turned out. Industry did their own studies (in the 70s…), found recycling to not be cost effective (sorting issue, different types of plastic not recyclable, limited lifetime of plastic such that it could only be recycled a couple of times before becoming useless). Yet these companies still pushed this junk on us and we continue to live with those repercussions today. Also battery packs are often packed with copious amounts of glue/adhesive and other items that don’t appear to be recyclable. Does that make the recycling process more difficult? As a battery pack in general, what can be recovered? What goes to the landfill?
- vbezhenar 3y ago
  > we were sold on the infinite recyclability of plastics Really? I thought plastic won because it's cheap. I never heard about anyone recycling it.

willcipriano 3y ago

Thank god we have a tariff to protect us from these lower cost vehicles.

tryptophan 3y ago
Yeah, having to buy something other than the Ford™ Giga-MAX EXTREME FREEDOM F150-THUNDERBOLT for 95k would be awful.
- jhayward 3y ago
  You mean like Ford's Mustang Mach-E, that starts at $40,000? I'm not sure what purpose the hyperbole serves here.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    If that's competitive why do they need a tariff?
  - 0cVlTeIATBs 3y ago
    For comparison, BYD's are in the $10k range https://electrek.co/2024/03/06/byd-launches-cheaper-seagull-ev-9700-price/ https://electrek.co/2024/03/06/byd-launches-cheaper-seagull-...
    - adriancr 3y ago
      Those 10K range cars are much lower quality/battery/finish/size/etc... and that's before any shipping, taxes and likely adding any safety features required to adhere to rules to US/EU market.
      - aaomidi 3y ago
        > quality Hmm. Not sure I agree with you there. American cars aren’t particularly known for being high quality.

sheeshkebab 3y ago

The article is written with errors and sounds like it was created by a bot, complemented with some fake quotes… I guess the battery is ok or is the point here to push BYD cars?

SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
> here to push BYD cars? BYD batteries, actually. Which are used in cars made by BYD, and some of the vehicles made by several other brands, including Hyundai, Toyota, Kia, Lincoln and Tesla. Source: https://carnewschina.com/2023/09/08/mercedes-benz-to-use-byd-blade-batteries-in-their-evs-according-to-report https://carnewschina.com/2023/09/08/mercedes-benz-to-use-byd... https://electrek.co/2024/02/15/byd-signs-deal-ford-gm-supplier-use-lfp-battery-packs/ https://electrek.co/2024/02/15/byd-signs-deal-ford-gm-suppli... BYD was a battery maker before they were a car maker. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Company

xyst 3y ago

> which is expected to enable nearly 1,200 miles (2,000 km) CLTC range. That’s fucking huge. Bye bye range anxiety. Drive across TX (El Paso to Texarkana) and more without bothering to recharge or turning off creature comforts (ie, AC). Let’s just hope this Chinese company is not over promising

Thorrez 3y ago
Those specific numbers were about a plug-in hybrid. So with gas power.
- Jedd 3y ago
  > Those specific numbers were about a plug-in hybrid. So with gas power. Where are you seeing that? I can't find 'hybrid' in TFA at all. Admittedly it's a bit confusing that Americans stick with miles, and are also the only culture on the planet to call the (very much a liquid) petrol 'gas', but the reference in TFA was pretty unambiguous: "This could enable fully electric models to exceed 621 miles (1,000 km) CLTC range."
  - CorrectHorseBat 3y ago
    >The comments come with its next-gen DM-i (PHEV) system due out soon, which is expected to enable nearly 1,200 miles (2,000 km) CLTC range.
lm28469 3y ago
> That’s fucking huge. Bye bye range anxiety I wish people were rational and didn't "need" a 2000km range car to not develop "anxiety" when they do like 40km per day on average

chucke1992 3y ago

Their cars also look good. I will probably consider BYD for my next car. I don't like not having dashboard in front of me (like Tesla is doing right now).

greenthrow 3y ago
The part you're referring to is called an instrument cluster traditionally, or more modernly, a driver's display. Teslas do have dashboards, despite their commitment to minimalism. :)
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
  I prefer the term "Binnacle"
amou234 3y ago
By buying BYD, you are supporting the Chinese government, which is actively supporting Russia [1] By buying BYD, you are supporting Chinese government's deep subsidization of BYD and its heavy loss per vehicle, to dump on and destroy US/Europe/Japan auto industries and its labor forces [1]https://www.dw.com/en/china-and-russia-agree-to-boost-ties-in-opposition-to-west/a-68773085 https://www.dw.com/en/china-and-russia-agree-to-boost-ties-i...
- r00fus 3y ago
  While by supporting ICE vehicles and oil companies you are supporting the US government’s genocidal support of Israel. The whataboutism works two ways. The better way to “fight” China is to lobby your government to actually compete and build its own manufacturing base.
  - Rinzler89 3y ago
    You can build a manufacturing base, but can you also "build" the workforce willing to work for manufacturing sector wages while keeping the prices competitive?

poulpy123 3y ago

related: is there any second hand market for electric car ? knowing that the battery is a consumable ? I'm able to buy a very good used car for 5-10k€, I'm afraid I will never be able to afford an e-car without second hand market

ceejayoz 3y ago
There are quite a few Teslas available in my area that are a couple years old; presumably, 2-3 year leases ending. Their batteries are likely to be in pretty good condition, and if you buy them from Tesla there's a warranty.
shmatt 3y ago
That 5000 euro car is going to need a lot more maintenance than a used electric car
- catmanjan 3y ago
  Until mechanics are willing to replace individual cells in a battery pack there is the looming risk of a very high cost repair...
- kalleboo 3y ago
  I'll need more frequent, but far cheaper maintenance. The current electric cars are all overengineered luxury cars in order to hit a profit margin and are extremely expensive to repair many normally minor faults. It's fine if you're the original owner under a warranty but a second hand buyer beware. Theoretically electric cars should be super simple and reliable and have very cheap repairs, but those cars aren't being made by anyone today (maybe the Nissan Leaf?)
bryanlarsen 3y ago
You'll likely never be able to buy an electric car for much under $5k, because it'll have a scrap value of $3-$5k. $5k-$10k implies a >10 year old car and EV's only started shipping in good volume in the last year or two.

georgeburdell 3y ago

CLTC range is Chinese funny numbers and will underperform EPA mileage (which already overstate range particularly in cool weather) Unrelated but I’ve taken a very hard stance personally on buying anything Chinese and have just accepted that it may mean being stuck with inferior technology. Not only are they dumping their high tech goods on the international markets, but I believe money sent over there will come back as bullets for my children or grandchildren.

greenthrow 3y ago
What did you type this comment on then?
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  Heh. Gotcha. https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/ https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/
  - greenthrow 3y ago
    Not the same at all. He said he doesn't use anything from China.
14 3y ago
Well my children are already destined to be slaves to the system with the current cost of living so personally I would buy a cheap Chinese car. Not that I want to. I think it will be a good thing because then perhaps are home grown car manufacturers will see the writing and start offering affordable to the masses cars. We don’t need a thousand features in a car. Power windows, touch screens, self driving and every other tech that adds to the cost can take a bike. I just want a cheap bare bones electric car and local car manufacturers haven’t figured this out so I will risk Chinese bullets as I already have to choose when it comes to gas or higher quality food choices. Head of lettuce reaching $5 these days.
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago

Freedom2 3y ago

Okay but the Cybertruck can soon have an addon that lets you drive in water. Which do we all prefer here?