4 ms·

I love the lack of sympathy for tech workers across North America or perhaps even globally, when tech hub salaries still don’t allow tech workers to even have a

I love the lack of sympathy for tech workers across North America or perhaps even globally, when tech hub salaries still don’t allow tech workers to even have a middle class lifestyle. Very few people I know get paid enough to buy a starter home within 2 or 3 hours of where they work. I get paid more than my non tech peers yet still functionally have less spending power than a 25 year old from 30 years ago, despite being a fair bit older than 25

apwell23 2y ago
US middle class cleaved into two groups post pandemic: homeowners at 2% interest rates and everyone else. Its the new middleclass have and have nots. You have it pretty good right now if you are a homeowner.
- infamouscow 2y ago
  This is short sighted. People have been saying similar about the cars purchased in 2021 because they sell for well above asking. As 36-month leases start coming due the prices of those cars is normalizing back to where it should be. All of the boomers that refuse to downsize and plan to die in their homes are going to do the same with the housing market, but in a more spectacular fashion that causes the market to crash.
  - dehrmann 2y ago
    On the boomer front, it's hard to say because it'll play out over 20 years, and there's a genuine supply shortage. There's also a chance a lot of their kids take the house over and sell something less desirable.
- dehrmann 2y ago
  In theory, those homes should start going down in value once people start selling because you can buy less home for a $2,000 per month mortgage payment. The market's weird right now because a lot of people with low interest rates can't afford to sell and buy something comparable.
  - refulgentis 2y ago
    I agree: but given that, it's hard to imagine what would bend the market towards selling.
  - selimthegrim 2y ago
    Depending on the region of the country, a lot of people with low interest rates might be handcuffed by skyrocketing insurance from finding buyers
- ethbr1 2y ago
  The US middle class has always been divided into homeowners and non-homeowners.
- jorvi 2y ago
  Yup. Homeowners in the first world need to start to feel some serious tax pain, which should go directly to building as much housing as fast as humanly possible. And screw crying about home devaluation. You making a handy profit when you switch houses in a decade does not trump the basic need for people to have housing.
Domenic_S 2y ago
> I get paid more than my non tech peers yet still functionally have less spending power than a 25 year old from 30 years ago This seems like some non-generic case specific to your situation and not representative of the average experience. The median income in 1994 for over-25-year-olds (men only!) was $25,465 [0], women was less than half of that. Let's go with the figure for men for the sake of discussion. $25,465 in 1994 is the buying power of $55k today [1]. $55k is the 56th percentile [2], so right where we'd expect it to be. --- 1994: median home price $142,200 [3], interest rate 30-year fixed: 8.38% [4] Principal balance $113,760 @ 8.38%, payment (P&I): $865, or 3.4% of annual income --- 2024: median home price $384,500 [5], interest rate 30-year fixed: 7% [6] Principal balance $307,600 @ 7%, payment (P&I): $2,046, 3.7% of annual income --- Opinion incoming: I think there are 2 things that make 'today' seem more expensive than 'back then': implacable consumerism, and the natural change of places over time (ie, gentrification & co). w/r/t consumerism, the load on both 'necessary' and discretionary spending has increased big-time - people were not generally paying for broadband, smartphones, gaming consoles, home espresso machines, soundbars, portable speakers, media players, printers/copiers/scanners, I could go on forever. Look around you and count how many things straight-up didn't exist in 1994 (or were reserved for the ultrawealthy or for business). We could do without them today, but it would feel really bad, as if we're not participating in society or making use of its advancement. w/r/t gentrification, many places today are more desirable than they used to be, and their increase in price is a function of demand rather than of inflation, so it feels like the economics of living got away from people who weren't already bought in. But it's not that "everything" got so much more expensive, it's that, for example, Akron OH used to be more expensive than San Jose (!!) because farming was the center of industry. Now the world changed and what used to be a pretty rural town full of fruit trees is the most expensive metro in the country. It's not because "houses got more expensive" per se, it's that the world changed. [0] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d96/d96t376.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d96/d96t376.asp [1] https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25%2C465&year1=199401&year2=202402 https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25%2C465&year1... [2] https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/ [3] https://www.huduser.gov/periodicals/ushmc/winter2001/histdat08.htm https://www.huduser.gov/periodicals/ushmc/winter2001/histdat... [4] https://www.mpamag.com/us/mortgage-industry/guides/historical-mortgage-rates-in-the-usa-highest-high-and-lowest-lows/433237#:~:text=The%20highest%20mortgage%20rate%20in%20the%20last%2030%20years%20was,%25%2C%20according%20to%20Freddie%20Mac https://www.mpamag.com/us/mortgage-industry/guides/historica.... [5] https://www.bankrate.com/real-estate/existing-home-sales/ https://www.bankrate.com/real-estate/existing-home-sales/ [6] https://www.bankrate.com/mortgages/mortgage-interest-rates-forecast/ https://www.bankrate.com/mortgages/mortgage-interest-rates-f...
alephnerd 2y ago
> I love the lack of sympathy for tech workers across North America or perhaps even globally, when tech hub salaries still don’t allow tech workers to even have a middle class lifestyle Do you have empathy for IBs, PEs, and other members of High Finance? The difference in TC between High Finance and the equivalent roles in Tech are not that significant. Goldman Sach's IB Analysts starting salaries at the SF office were $90k with minimal bonuses in 2020. These same people could have worked at Google or Microsoft (and most of them legitimately had that option) The overlap between Big Finance and Big Tech is massive, just like the overlap between random engineer and random corpdev drone in Dallas or KC.
- ylee 2y ago
  >Goldman Sach's IB Analysts starting salaries at the SF office were $90k with minimal bonuses in 2020. These same people could have worked at Google or Microsoft (and most of them legitimately had that option) When I graduated from Columbia in 1999, I interviewed and got offers at various tech startups, but entry-level jobs on the "PM track" for those without a CS/engineering degree didn't formally exist at the likes of Microsoft or Yahoo as far as I know. I had a technical background, but was almost entirely self-taught, and had no interest in writing code for money anyway. <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36027171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36027171> Of my offers I chose Goldman, where I worked with tech companies. Thank goodness for that; I got to participate in the dotcom bubble without being directly swept up in its popping, and saw the Valley immediately post-bubble collapse. <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34726735 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34726735> My GS starting salary was 40K. During that first year, because of the dotcom bubble, Goldman raised the salary to $55/65/75K for first/second/third-year analysts, and my end-of-year bonus in 2000 was close to 100% of salary. Then the full effect of the recession/market crash hit and the 2001 bonus was, well, much smaller.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > the 2001 bonus was, well, much smaller Exactly! The bonus plays a massive role in Analyst compensation, and during 2020-present, the bonus was slashed severely due to a lack of late stage dealflow. The work hours at GS and JPM were still as crappy as before, but the bonuses were trash when factoring stock and bonus compensation their peers were getting. A bunch of my mentees made the switch to PM, SWE, VC analyst, or Founding explicitly because of that.

apwell23 2y ago

US middle class cleaved into two groups post pandemic: homeowners at 2% interest rates and everyone else. Its the new middleclass have and have nots. You have it pretty good right now if you are a homeowner.

infamouscow 2y ago
This is short sighted. People have been saying similar about the cars purchased in 2021 because they sell for well above asking. As 36-month leases start coming due the prices of those cars is normalizing back to where it should be. All of the boomers that refuse to downsize and plan to die in their homes are going to do the same with the housing market, but in a more spectacular fashion that causes the market to crash.
- dehrmann 2y ago
  On the boomer front, it's hard to say because it'll play out over 20 years, and there's a genuine supply shortage. There's also a chance a lot of their kids take the house over and sell something less desirable.
dehrmann 2y ago
In theory, those homes should start going down in value once people start selling because you can buy less home for a $2,000 per month mortgage payment. The market's weird right now because a lot of people with low interest rates can't afford to sell and buy something comparable.
- refulgentis 2y ago
  I agree: but given that, it's hard to imagine what would bend the market towards selling.
- selimthegrim 2y ago
  Depending on the region of the country, a lot of people with low interest rates might be handcuffed by skyrocketing insurance from finding buyers
ethbr1 2y ago
The US middle class has always been divided into homeowners and non-homeowners.
jorvi 2y ago
Yup. Homeowners in the first world need to start to feel some serious tax pain, which should go directly to building as much housing as fast as humanly possible. And screw crying about home devaluation. You making a handy profit when you switch houses in a decade does not trump the basic need for people to have housing.

Domenic_S 2y ago

> I get paid more than my non tech peers yet still functionally have less spending power than a 25 year old from 30 years ago This seems like some non-generic case specific to your situation and not representative of the average experience. The median income in 1994 for over-25-year-olds (men only!) was $25,465 [0], women was less than half of that. Let's go with the figure for men for the sake of discussion. $25,465 in 1994 is the buying power of $55k today [1]. $55k is the 56th percentile [2], so right where we'd expect it to be. --- 1994: median home price $142,200 [3], interest rate 30-year fixed: 8.38% [4] Principal balance $113,760 @ 8.38%, payment (P&I): $865, or 3.4% of annual income --- 2024: median home price $384,500 [5], interest rate 30-year fixed: 7% [6] Principal balance $307,600 @ 7%, payment (P&I): $2,046, 3.7% of annual income --- Opinion incoming: I think there are 2 things that make 'today' seem more expensive than 'back then': implacable consumerism, and the natural change of places over time (ie, gentrification & co). w/r/t consumerism, the load on both 'necessary' and discretionary spending has increased big-time - people were not generally paying for broadband, smartphones, gaming consoles, home espresso machines, soundbars, portable speakers, media players, printers/copiers/scanners, I could go on forever. Look around you and count how many things straight-up didn't exist in 1994 (or were reserved for the ultrawealthy or for business). We could do without them today, but it would feel really bad, as if we're not participating in society or making use of its advancement. w/r/t gentrification, many places today are more desirable than they used to be, and their increase in price is a function of demand rather than of inflation, so it feels like the economics of living got away from people who weren't already bought in. But it's not that "everything" got so much more expensive, it's that, for example, Akron OH used to be more expensive than San Jose (!!) because farming was the center of industry. Now the world changed and what used to be a pretty rural town full of fruit trees is the most expensive metro in the country. It's not because "houses got more expensive" per se, it's that the world changed. [0] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d96/d96t376.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d96/d96t376.asp [1] https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25%2C465&year1=199401&year2=202402 https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25%2C465&year1... [2] https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/ [3] https://www.huduser.gov/periodicals/ushmc/winter2001/histdat08.htm https://www.huduser.gov/periodicals/ushmc/winter2001/histdat... [4] https://www.mpamag.com/us/mortgage-industry/guides/historical-mortgage-rates-in-the-usa-highest-high-and-lowest-lows/433237#:~:text=The%20highest%20mortgage%20rate%20in%20the%20last%2030%20years%20was,%25%2C%20according%20to%20Freddie%20Mac https://www.mpamag.com/us/mortgage-industry/guides/historica.... [5] https://www.bankrate.com/real-estate/existing-home-sales/ https://www.bankrate.com/real-estate/existing-home-sales/ [6] https://www.bankrate.com/mortgages/mortgage-interest-rates-forecast/ https://www.bankrate.com/mortgages/mortgage-interest-rates-f...

alephnerd 2y ago

> I love the lack of sympathy for tech workers across North America or perhaps even globally, when tech hub salaries still don’t allow tech workers to even have a middle class lifestyle Do you have empathy for IBs, PEs, and other members of High Finance? The difference in TC between High Finance and the equivalent roles in Tech are not that significant. Goldman Sach's IB Analysts starting salaries at the SF office were $90k with minimal bonuses in 2020. These same people could have worked at Google or Microsoft (and most of them legitimately had that option) The overlap between Big Finance and Big Tech is massive, just like the overlap between random engineer and random corpdev drone in Dallas or KC.

ylee 2y ago
>Goldman Sach's IB Analysts starting salaries at the SF office were $90k with minimal bonuses in 2020. These same people could have worked at Google or Microsoft (and most of them legitimately had that option) When I graduated from Columbia in 1999, I interviewed and got offers at various tech startups, but entry-level jobs on the "PM track" for those without a CS/engineering degree didn't formally exist at the likes of Microsoft or Yahoo as far as I know. I had a technical background, but was almost entirely self-taught, and had no interest in writing code for money anyway. <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36027171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36027171> Of my offers I chose Goldman, where I worked with tech companies. Thank goodness for that; I got to participate in the dotcom bubble without being directly swept up in its popping, and saw the Valley immediately post-bubble collapse. <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34726735 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34726735> My GS starting salary was 40K. During that first year, because of the dotcom bubble, Goldman raised the salary to $55/65/75K for first/second/third-year analysts, and my end-of-year bonus in 2000 was close to 100% of salary. Then the full effect of the recession/market crash hit and the 2001 bonus was, well, much smaller.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > the 2001 bonus was, well, much smaller Exactly! The bonus plays a massive role in Analyst compensation, and during 2020-present, the bonus was slashed severely due to a lack of late stage dealflow. The work hours at GS and JPM were still as crappy as before, but the bonuses were trash when factoring stock and bonus compensation their peers were getting. A bunch of my mentees made the switch to PM, SWE, VC analyst, or Founding explicitly because of that.