4 ms·

The wording of the rule change seems to imply that the games must be downloaded from the app (perhaps disallowing sideloading), which Apple would not allow for

by cowsup 3y ago

The wording of the rule change seems to imply that the games must be downloaded from the app (perhaps disallowing sideloading), which Apple would not allow for games that the app developer does not own the rights to. This seems more catered towards a Sega, Namco, or similar “Retro Game Collection” service, versus a third-party “drop in your own ROMs” app.

14 3y ago
Again reminds me that jailbreaking is still useful in 2024. Apple tried to close the gap by stealing many of the best features but they can not give up full control not due to security but always due to greed.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  It’s not like Nintendo will sue Apple for using an emulator with copyrighted ROMs are facilitating pirating…
  - galleywest200 3y ago
    Nintendo generally leaves the retro, unsupported console emulators alone. mGBA, Project64, Dolphin (except for their request to take down their steam page).
    - jsheard 3y ago
      Case in point: there's an endless list of Nintendo system emulators on the Play Store, many of which have been up for years with no issues. I'm sure Nintendo would prefer they weren't available on there, but as long as they don't distribute any copyrighted files or keys Nintendo can't really make a compelling case to Google that they shouldn't be allowed.
      - extraduder_ire 3y ago
        Thanks to the DMCA, they wouldn't need to make the case to google, just send a notice and they're obligated to comply. The dispute would be between the uploader and nintendo once a takedown is sent, and maybe counter-claimed.
  - 38 3y ago
    this sentence makes no sense
  - ghusto 3y ago
    That's right, it's not like that. Nintendo sues when they know they can win, as in the Yuzu debacle where keys were extracted and distributed in order for the emulator to work. There's nothing like that necessary for NES, SNES, or even (as far as I know) N64 or Wii. So no, Nintendo would not sue.
    - suction 3y ago
      [dead]
    - roblabla 3y ago
      Dolphin ships with a bunch of keys in the source code[0]. So do almost every other emulators for any console from 6/7th gen consoles (ps3, xbox360, gamecube), see delroth's post on the matter here[1]. It's really not that simple - jurisdiction matters a lot, and also Nintendo's own priorities. [0]: https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/blob/34527cadcce49a9a78f05949973b0930ac4dd999/Source/Core/Core/IOS/IOSC.cpp#L575 https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/blob/34527cadcce49a9a... [1]: https://delroth.net/posts/emulation-crypto-keys-copyright-dmca/#content-start https://delroth.net/posts/emulation-crypto-keys-copyright-dm...
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        And it’s no longer available on Steam after Nintendo complained https://www.pcgamer.com/after-being-kicked-off-steam-dolphin-emulator-devs-say-nintendos-legal-claim-is-a-reach-now-that-we-have-talked-to-a-lawyer-we-are-no-longer-concerned/ https://www.pcgamer.com/after-being-kicked-off-steam-dolphin...
    - bitmasher9 3y ago
      There is more money in having Nintendo be happy to support iPhone platform with games than having them feel insulted over a low revenue app that is also on the platform.
    - chongli 3y ago
      Nintendo will not need to sue because they know that the only way Apple will ever allow a NES, SNES, or N64 emulator is if Nintendo publishes it themselves and offers their own games for it through IAPs.
  - boomlinde 3y ago
    An NES emulator, for example, would not require the inclusion of anything copyright protected, since there is no built-in system program code. An NES emulator app could instead offer the user to manually install games in the app sandbox, like ScummVM does today, with no concern for whether they were obtained legally or not.
- amelius 3y ago
  Anothing thing that's still useful in 2024 is: not buying Apple products in the first place. It's kind of crazy that people still think it's ok that a vendor can determine what a user, who owns the product, can and cannot do with it.
  - brookst 3y ago
    The first step in understanding why people have different opinions from your is to stop characterizing them as crazy.
    - stale2002 3y ago
      Apple isn't crazy for having its restrictions. Monopolistic practices are very profitable. Of course Apple wants to put up barriers to entry, and to make decisions that make it hard for consumers to switch platforms.
      - brookst 3y ago
        The trick is understanding that many Apple users like that tradeoff. You’re seeing people as helpless and they’re just not. It’s a great curated closed ecosystem. Now, maybe people shouldn’t be allowed to make those tradeoffs, for their own good. But Apple owners are willing participants in a deal.
        amelius 3y ago
        If you want to look at it that way, it still is crazy that there is only one ContentFilter on that platform, and it's Apple's.
        stale2002 3y ago
        > Now, maybe people shouldn’t be allowed to make those tradeoffs They are free to make those tradeoffs. If people want to keep using the Apple app store, or walled garden, or whatever, that's fine. What instead people want to allow, is for other people to be able to use the products that they own in whatever way that they choose. > It’s a great curated closed ecosystem As long as other people can choose to use their Apple devices that they own in the way that they prefer, then that's fine. Keep using that ecosystem. Other people should be free to use their devices however they wish though. > You’re seeing people as helpless and they’re just not. Users are not able to help themselves to use their own Apple devices how they want. In that sense yes, they are helpless to use their own Apple device in a way that they prefer.
- rchaud 3y ago
  It's a reminder that all of Apple's protestations about the apocalypse happening if they open up their platform (Flash games, iMessage, no native file manager app until 2017), are really just cover for Apple to promote Apple Music, Apple Arcade and iCloud. Meanwhile on Android, transfer some files to local storage, point your emulation app to that director, and that's it.
boomlinde 3y ago
From the guideline document, emphasis mine: "Additionally, retro game console emulator apps can offer to download games." (followed by conditions that apply if you do offer to download games). My reading is that retro game console emulator apps can offer to download games, not that they must to be considered for inclusion in the app store.

by cowsup 3y ago

14 3y ago

Again reminds me that jailbreaking is still useful in 2024. Apple tried to close the gap by stealing many of the best features but they can not give up full control not due to security but always due to greed.

scarface_74 3y ago
It’s not like Nintendo will sue Apple for using an emulator with copyrighted ROMs are facilitating pirating…
- galleywest200 3y ago
  Nintendo generally leaves the retro, unsupported console emulators alone. mGBA, Project64, Dolphin (except for their request to take down their steam page).
  - jsheard 3y ago
    Case in point: there's an endless list of Nintendo system emulators on the Play Store, many of which have been up for years with no issues. I'm sure Nintendo would prefer they weren't available on there, but as long as they don't distribute any copyrighted files or keys Nintendo can't really make a compelling case to Google that they shouldn't be allowed.
    - extraduder_ire 3y ago
      Thanks to the DMCA, they wouldn't need to make the case to google, just send a notice and they're obligated to comply. The dispute would be between the uploader and nintendo once a takedown is sent, and maybe counter-claimed.
- 38 3y ago
  this sentence makes no sense
- ghusto 3y ago
  That's right, it's not like that. Nintendo sues when they know they can win, as in the Yuzu debacle where keys were extracted and distributed in order for the emulator to work. There's nothing like that necessary for NES, SNES, or even (as far as I know) N64 or Wii. So no, Nintendo would not sue.
  - suction 3y ago
    [dead]
  - roblabla 3y ago
    Dolphin ships with a bunch of keys in the source code[0]. So do almost every other emulators for any console from 6/7th gen consoles (ps3, xbox360, gamecube), see delroth's post on the matter here[1]. It's really not that simple - jurisdiction matters a lot, and also Nintendo's own priorities. [0]: https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/blob/34527cadcce49a9a78f05949973b0930ac4dd999/Source/Core/Core/IOS/IOSC.cpp#L575 https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/blob/34527cadcce49a9a... [1]: https://delroth.net/posts/emulation-crypto-keys-copyright-dmca/#content-start https://delroth.net/posts/emulation-crypto-keys-copyright-dm...
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      And it’s no longer available on Steam after Nintendo complained https://www.pcgamer.com/after-being-kicked-off-steam-dolphin-emulator-devs-say-nintendos-legal-claim-is-a-reach-now-that-we-have-talked-to-a-lawyer-we-are-no-longer-concerned/ https://www.pcgamer.com/after-being-kicked-off-steam-dolphin...
  - bitmasher9 3y ago
    There is more money in having Nintendo be happy to support iPhone platform with games than having them feel insulted over a low revenue app that is also on the platform.
  - chongli 3y ago
    Nintendo will not need to sue because they know that the only way Apple will ever allow a NES, SNES, or N64 emulator is if Nintendo publishes it themselves and offers their own games for it through IAPs.
- boomlinde 3y ago
  An NES emulator, for example, would not require the inclusion of anything copyright protected, since there is no built-in system program code. An NES emulator app could instead offer the user to manually install games in the app sandbox, like ScummVM does today, with no concern for whether they were obtained legally or not.
amelius 3y ago
Anothing thing that's still useful in 2024 is: not buying Apple products in the first place. It's kind of crazy that people still think it's ok that a vendor can determine what a user, who owns the product, can and cannot do with it.
- brookst 3y ago
  The first step in understanding why people have different opinions from your is to stop characterizing them as crazy.
  - stale2002 3y ago
    Apple isn't crazy for having its restrictions. Monopolistic practices are very profitable. Of course Apple wants to put up barriers to entry, and to make decisions that make it hard for consumers to switch platforms.
    - brookst 3y ago
      The trick is understanding that many Apple users like that tradeoff. You’re seeing people as helpless and they’re just not. It’s a great curated closed ecosystem. Now, maybe people shouldn’t be allowed to make those tradeoffs, for their own good. But Apple owners are willing participants in a deal.
      - amelius 3y ago
        If you want to look at it that way, it still is crazy that there is only one ContentFilter on that platform, and it's Apple's.
      - stale2002 3y ago
        > Now, maybe people shouldn’t be allowed to make those tradeoffs They are free to make those tradeoffs. If people want to keep using the Apple app store, or walled garden, or whatever, that's fine. What instead people want to allow, is for other people to be able to use the products that they own in whatever way that they choose. > It’s a great curated closed ecosystem As long as other people can choose to use their Apple devices that they own in the way that they prefer, then that's fine. Keep using that ecosystem. Other people should be free to use their devices however they wish though. > You’re seeing people as helpless and they’re just not. Users are not able to help themselves to use their own Apple devices how they want. In that sense yes, they are helpless to use their own Apple device in a way that they prefer.
rchaud 3y ago
It's a reminder that all of Apple's protestations about the apocalypse happening if they open up their platform (Flash games, iMessage, no native file manager app until 2017), are really just cover for Apple to promote Apple Music, Apple Arcade and iCloud. Meanwhile on Android, transfer some files to local storage, point your emulation app to that director, and that's it.

boomlinde 3y ago

From the guideline document, emphasis mine: "Additionally, retro game console emulator apps can offer to download games." (followed by conditions that apply if you do offer to download games). My reading is that retro game console emulator apps can offer to download games, not that they must to be considered for inclusion in the app store.