8 ms·

I dunno man, $12 BILLION is a pretty serious speeding ticket

by cfiggers 3y ago

skrebbel 3y ago
I think the argument is that people doing crime go to jail, so when a company does crime, maybe the same should happen.
konfusinomicon 3y ago
not when you have 3M billions
idiotsecant 3y ago
3M sells about 1.3 billion USD of the stuff yearly at about 16% margin, so figure about 200 million USD in profit per year. 12 billion represents about 60 current profit-years of production.They invented the stuff in the 30s but have been churning it out in quantity since the 50s. 12 billion isn't a speeding ticket but it also isn't even all the profit they made on it. In addition to that, is their obligation to pay their profits or to make whole a world soaked in forever chemicals? Because the latter would be way more than 12 billion.
- tome 3y ago
  I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. Are you saying that 60 years of profit on a product that's been churned out in quantity for 70 years is a small fine?
  - justinclift 3y ago
    > 12 billion isn't a speeding ticket but it also isn't even all the profit they made on it. They literally said "it isn't even all the profit they made". That seems pretty clear.
    - tome 3y ago
      It's not clear to me!
      - asadotzler 3y ago
        [flagged]
        justinclift 3y ago
        > That this simple idea seems a stretch for you might be a signal to you that your reality is distorted in this area and could use a re-examining. That seems pretty unwarranted. :(
      - justinclift 3y ago
        They're being fined less than the profit they made. Surely they should be getting fined more than how much they profited? Preferably (at a minimum) several times the amount, so they (and others) aren't keen to do it again.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  Indeed, the real justice would be to make them pay for cleanup efforts for the next 200 years
  - ben_w 3y ago
    How are you planning on enforcing that given: 1) bankruptcy is a thing, and 2) that period exceeds the lifespan of not only those responsible, but also any kids they might have conceived in extreme old age, and people can just… choose not work for (or invest in) a company that's been stuck with a long-term obligation. I can see how it would be possible to make criminal liability stick on all members of a chain of command, corporate or otherwise, responsible for some decision. I can't see how setting a multi-lifetime punishment could possibly work.
    - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
      > 1) bankruptcy is a thing Students loans, famously, can’t be discharged in bankruptcy, and follow you your entire life. Should we have one set of law for the capital class and another for mere peasants?
      - mattmaroon 3y ago
        When you sign up for student loans, you are aware (or at least should be) that they can't be discharged in bankruptcy. They aren't dischargable in bankruptcy because if they were, far fewer would be made, and far fewer non-rich people would go to college, and we don't want that. Nothing would perpetuate class divisions more than restricting education to those with money. Nobody would ever get a student loan for an anthropology degree again. I don't necessarily agree with this system, as an 18 yr old probably does not have the life experience to make such large financial decisions, and I think perhaps far fewer people should go to college for things of no economic value, but the system has logic to it. It's meant to benefit the "peasants". Rich people don't need student loans and can pay for their kids' degrees. Fines aren't the same. A company only has so much money. Many of the owners of the company are pensions funds, etc., that are held by the middle class. You can't reasonably squeeze money from everyone who had an ETF that contained 3M. You need to allow corporations to file bankruptcy to have a healthy economy, in fact, America's bankruptcy laws are (according to some economists) one of the reasons we have such a strong economy.
jajko 3y ago
Do you see the company struggling to stay afloat, breaking up, selling parts to competition just to survive? For poisoning half of planet and killing god knows how many, yes thats a (bit bigger) speeding ticket, nothing more.

I dunno man, $12 BILLION is a pretty serious speeding ticket

skrebbel 3y ago

I think the argument is that people doing crime go to jail, so when a company does crime, maybe the same should happen.

konfusinomicon 3y ago

not when you have 3M billions

idiotsecant 3y ago

3M sells about 1.3 billion USD of the stuff yearly at about 16% margin, so figure about 200 million USD in profit per year. 12 billion represents about 60 current profit-years of production.They invented the stuff in the 30s but have been churning it out in quantity since the 50s. 12 billion isn't a speeding ticket but it also isn't even all the profit they made on it. In addition to that, is their obligation to pay their profits or to make whole a world soaked in forever chemicals? Because the latter would be way more than 12 billion.

tome 3y ago
I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. Are you saying that 60 years of profit on a product that's been churned out in quantity for 70 years is a small fine?
- justinclift 3y ago
  > 12 billion isn't a speeding ticket but it also isn't even all the profit they made on it. They literally said "it isn't even all the profit they made". That seems pretty clear.
  - tome 3y ago
    It's not clear to me!
    - asadotzler 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - justinclift 3y ago
        > That this simple idea seems a stretch for you might be a signal to you that your reality is distorted in this area and could use a re-examining. That seems pretty unwarranted. :(
    - justinclift 3y ago
      They're being fined less than the profit they made. Surely they should be getting fined more than how much they profited? Preferably (at a minimum) several times the amount, so they (and others) aren't keen to do it again.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
Indeed, the real justice would be to make them pay for cleanup efforts for the next 200 years
- ben_w 3y ago
  How are you planning on enforcing that given: 1) bankruptcy is a thing, and 2) that period exceeds the lifespan of not only those responsible, but also any kids they might have conceived in extreme old age, and people can just… choose not work for (or invest in) a company that's been stuck with a long-term obligation. I can see how it would be possible to make criminal liability stick on all members of a chain of command, corporate or otherwise, responsible for some decision. I can't see how setting a multi-lifetime punishment could possibly work.
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    > 1) bankruptcy is a thing Students loans, famously, can’t be discharged in bankruptcy, and follow you your entire life. Should we have one set of law for the capital class and another for mere peasants?
    - mattmaroon 3y ago
      When you sign up for student loans, you are aware (or at least should be) that they can't be discharged in bankruptcy. They aren't dischargable in bankruptcy because if they were, far fewer would be made, and far fewer non-rich people would go to college, and we don't want that. Nothing would perpetuate class divisions more than restricting education to those with money. Nobody would ever get a student loan for an anthropology degree again. I don't necessarily agree with this system, as an 18 yr old probably does not have the life experience to make such large financial decisions, and I think perhaps far fewer people should go to college for things of no economic value, but the system has logic to it. It's meant to benefit the "peasants". Rich people don't need student loans and can pay for their kids' degrees. Fines aren't the same. A company only has so much money. Many of the owners of the company are pensions funds, etc., that are held by the middle class. You can't reasonably squeeze money from everyone who had an ETF that contained 3M. You need to allow corporations to file bankruptcy to have a healthy economy, in fact, America's bankruptcy laws are (according to some economists) one of the reasons we have such a strong economy.

jajko 3y ago

Do you see the company struggling to stay afloat, breaking up, selling parts to competition just to survive? For poisoning half of planet and killing god knows how many, yes thats a (bit bigger) speeding ticket, nothing more.