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So they’re forced to choose between military service or having sex on camera? I’m not sure I’d call that “amateur porn” if it’s not consensual

Dylan16807 2y ago
Wanting to get out of a pre-existing obligation that every man has, and most don't get out of, should not qualify as lack of consent.
- noman-land 2y ago
  The obligation itself already lacks consent so anything you feel forced to do to get out of it is similarly non-consentual.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    If by "similarly" you mean "equally bad at most", then I can agree with that. But I think most people would rate non-consensual sex as significantly worse than a non-consensual day job. So if you say the sex on camera is not consensual, you're implying a very different kind of consent violation than is actually happening.
    - eastbound 2y ago
      > most people would rate non-consensual sex as significantly worse than a non-consensual day job The argument here is non-consensual. No work is totally consensual, since you need to survive. You accept a life-long inconvenience in exchange for a beautiful house. Can we make sex consensual in exchange for a large enough inconvenience? The response lies in an experiment: Propose a menial job to prostitutes. Even at the same rate, most prefer their occupation. Therefore it’s consensual. A funny quirk about non-consensual work is that the 1930’s ILO convention against slavery and forced work… excluded able-bodied men in age of working (article 11). Which kind of defeats the purpose of the convention. This article was only abolished in 1957. But compulsory military service still exists in probably half of the world countries.
- superb_dev 2y ago
  What part of that isn't a lack of consent? Forced consent is not consent, their only other option was forced military service.
basil-rash 2y ago
The Overton window has shifted such that two adults agreeing to engage in sexual activity in front of a camera can be in any way considered “non-consensual”? Wild. Do you think adult actors agreeing to engage in sexual activity in front of a camera, but only because they have chosen to do that for a living when other viable employment alternatives were available, is also “non-consensual”?
- willcipriano 2y ago
  "Hey I made this guy really mad go fight him for me" "No he will kill me!" "Alternatively you could have sex and let me film it" Consent.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    The problem is in line 1, not line 3. There would be some serious issues with 3 if 1 was a fake threat meant to push you into 3, but it's not. The vast majority go along with 1.
    - willcipriano 2y ago
      I see it as rape with a implied third party threat of violence instead of a first party one. You may feel differently if you feel that men's bodies belong to the state to be used in wars.
      - Dylan16807 2y ago
        The violence was already there. It's not a threat to say and honestly mean "otherwise nothing changes (99% of people pick this option)". The consent issues are all in the forced service itself, and apply to every man equally, whether or not they take the gay proof exemption.
        godelski 2y ago
        The violence was not "already there." The violence is generated by the men who are not at risk of going to war. There's an old saying about two people of different nationalities: The difference between you and me is smaller than the difference between us and our respective leaders. Leaders must convince the public that some person in a far away land hates them and is coming to kill them, because otherwise no one gives a fuck. Because frankly, no one is going to come into contact with another. Normal people are not the ones going to invade other countries and claim territory.
samatman 2y ago
My position is that the requirement was humiliating (a sibling comment says this has been discontinued, which is all to the good) and there's nothing consensual about mandatory military service. This was all explained to me in a verbal conversation, so I could be wrong about this part, but homosexuals didn't have to skip their military service, however many wanted to because they would be punished if caught in the act, so to speak. That makes deciding whether or not to submit photographic evidence into a pretty hard decision, but again, the nonconsensual part is being forced to serve in the military in the first place. I would also guess that the number of men who submitted to anal intercourse on camera with someone they wouldn't normally have sex with is approximately zero, so it qualifies as consensual in the ordinary sense. I'm not sure calling the result "amateur gay porn" is the ideal way to put it, but it is in fact all of amateur, pornographic, and gay.

Dylan16807 2y ago

Wanting to get out of a pre-existing obligation that every man has, and most don't get out of, should not qualify as lack of consent.

noman-land 2y ago
The obligation itself already lacks consent so anything you feel forced to do to get out of it is similarly non-consentual.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  If by "similarly" you mean "equally bad at most", then I can agree with that. But I think most people would rate non-consensual sex as significantly worse than a non-consensual day job. So if you say the sex on camera is not consensual, you're implying a very different kind of consent violation than is actually happening.
  - eastbound 2y ago
    > most people would rate non-consensual sex as significantly worse than a non-consensual day job The argument here is non-consensual. No work is totally consensual, since you need to survive. You accept a life-long inconvenience in exchange for a beautiful house. Can we make sex consensual in exchange for a large enough inconvenience? The response lies in an experiment: Propose a menial job to prostitutes. Even at the same rate, most prefer their occupation. Therefore it’s consensual. A funny quirk about non-consensual work is that the 1930’s ILO convention against slavery and forced work… excluded able-bodied men in age of working (article 11). Which kind of defeats the purpose of the convention. This article was only abolished in 1957. But compulsory military service still exists in probably half of the world countries.
superb_dev 2y ago
What part of that isn't a lack of consent? Forced consent is not consent, their only other option was forced military service.

basil-rash 2y ago

The Overton window has shifted such that two adults agreeing to engage in sexual activity in front of a camera can be in any way considered “non-consensual”? Wild. Do you think adult actors agreeing to engage in sexual activity in front of a camera, but only because they have chosen to do that for a living when other viable employment alternatives were available, is also “non-consensual”?

willcipriano 2y ago
"Hey I made this guy really mad go fight him for me" "No he will kill me!" "Alternatively you could have sex and let me film it" Consent.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  The problem is in line 1, not line 3. There would be some serious issues with 3 if 1 was a fake threat meant to push you into 3, but it's not. The vast majority go along with 1.
  - willcipriano 2y ago
    I see it as rape with a implied third party threat of violence instead of a first party one. You may feel differently if you feel that men's bodies belong to the state to be used in wars.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      The violence was already there. It's not a threat to say and honestly mean "otherwise nothing changes (99% of people pick this option)". The consent issues are all in the forced service itself, and apply to every man equally, whether or not they take the gay proof exemption.
      - godelski 2y ago
        The violence was not "already there." The violence is generated by the men who are not at risk of going to war. There's an old saying about two people of different nationalities: The difference between you and me is smaller than the difference between us and our respective leaders. Leaders must convince the public that some person in a far away land hates them and is coming to kill them, because otherwise no one gives a fuck. Because frankly, no one is going to come into contact with another. Normal people are not the ones going to invade other countries and claim territory.

samatman 2y ago

My position is that the requirement was humiliating (a sibling comment says this has been discontinued, which is all to the good) and there's nothing consensual about mandatory military service. This was all explained to me in a verbal conversation, so I could be wrong about this part, but homosexuals didn't have to skip their military service, however many wanted to because they would be punished if caught in the act, so to speak. That makes deciding whether or not to submit photographic evidence into a pretty hard decision, but again, the nonconsensual part is being forced to serve in the military in the first place. I would also guess that the number of men who submitted to anal intercourse on camera with someone they wouldn't normally have sex with is approximately zero, so it qualifies as consensual in the ordinary sense. I'm not sure calling the result "amateur gay porn" is the ideal way to put it, but it is in fact all of amateur, pornographic, and gay.