4 ms·

> The real problem I had, I think, is that I was bad at lying to myself. Or perhaps dr. Hossenfelder's grant proposal was simply bad and the ideas proposed cle

> The real problem I had, I think, is that I was bad at lying to myself. Or perhaps dr. Hossenfelder's grant proposal was simply bad and the ideas proposed clearly made no sense. Who knows? It might be hard to judge for the HN crowd, but I just would like to ask why everybody is so keen on trusting the opinions of a contrarian youtuber and blogger instead of, say, anyone with at least a somewhat respectable academic career?

coffeeaddict1 3y ago
> anyone with at least a somewhat respectable academic career I mean she does have that.
- prof-dr-ir 3y ago
  I am not so sure about that. She got her PhD in 2003 and is somehow still a "postdoctoral researcher" [0]. In Europe anyone with that academic age is normally a full professor, perhaps with some country-specific exceptions for some lesser gods (like a senior lecturer in the UK). [0] https://www.mcmp.philosophie.uni-muenchen.de/people/faculty/hossenfelder/index.html https://www.mcmp.philosophie.uni-muenchen.de/people/faculty/...
  - j7ake 3y ago
    This is wrong. She got her PhD in 2003 and got a faculty position in 2009 in Sweden. She moved back to Germany for family reasons.
  - tim333 3y ago
    >Sabine Hossenfelder is a Research Fellow at the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies. >Her research is looking for the best way to search for experimental evidence of quantum gravity. https://www.cas.lmu.de/en/people-at-cas/details/sabine-hossenfelder-c84d297c.html https://www.cas.lmu.de/en/people-at-cas/details/sabine-hosse...
gfcyugyu88 3y ago
There's research showing that, at least as late as several years ago, turnover in academics was increasing (in the sense that the average/median length of time in academics was decreasing), and probability of exiting academics was uncorrelated with measures of research quality. So it's not just Dr. Hossenfelder. I think there's a lot of variability in experiences. If you are in a supportive environment and integrated well into "the system" and then move into another supportive environment, I can't exactly say things go effortlessly, but you're more likely to have a good experience. If anything isn't lined up perfectly, you're more likely to have a hellish experience. I was a tenured professor, left my position for a variety of reasons, and got another position in (in a university) elsewhere and I wrestle with whether or not I'm doing the right thing every day. The basic problem is people are expected to bring in money to universities first and foremost, and be famous second, with a pool of money coming from the federal government, that isn't big enough to support everyone who wants to do research and can do it well. On top of this is how fame and monies are allocated: based on popularity essentially. So what gets funded is popular, fame is due to what's popular, etc. It sounds a little edgelord but I mean that in the strictest possible sociology of science way. So to convince the right people, you need to do research that everyone agrees on, and that is likely to be uninteresting in some sense etc. What doesn't work now is someone not bringing in money, who says "hey, how about we try something new that we don't know about?" You're actively punished for doing something off-trend. My guess is it varies by field but currently academics is a disaster in my opinion. It's remarkable to me actually to hear someone like Dr. Hossenfelder say the exact same things that I think and hear others complaining about every single day, in a completely absolutely different field. If you don't believe me or Dr. Hossenfelder, look at Peter Higgs, or Katalin Karikó. For every one of these stories there's hundreds or thousands you don't hear about because the absurdity of it just doesn't become quite that clear.
- porompompero 3y ago
  "If anything isn't lined up perfectly, you're more likely to have a hellish experience"... imagine you start working in a group led by someone with preferences for hiring like-minded people or other biases... in 10 years of career I have seen biases involving religion, family, region...
ycombinatrix 3y ago
she got that grant no? did i misread the article
- em-bee 3y ago
  she got grants for other stuff, but not the specific topic that she was interested in.
m_fayer 3y ago
Personal anecdata with a decently large sample size of my friend circle: I can introduce you to low double-digit number of promising and passionate scientists who didn't make it 5 years past their phd for the exact reasons that Dr. Hossenfelder points out. And they can all say the same thing about their friend-circles. They're not the HN crowd...

coffeeaddict1 3y ago

> anyone with at least a somewhat respectable academic career I mean she does have that.

prof-dr-ir 3y ago
I am not so sure about that. She got her PhD in 2003 and is somehow still a "postdoctoral researcher" [0]. In Europe anyone with that academic age is normally a full professor, perhaps with some country-specific exceptions for some lesser gods (like a senior lecturer in the UK). [0] https://www.mcmp.philosophie.uni-muenchen.de/people/faculty/hossenfelder/index.html https://www.mcmp.philosophie.uni-muenchen.de/people/faculty/...
- j7ake 3y ago
  This is wrong. She got her PhD in 2003 and got a faculty position in 2009 in Sweden. She moved back to Germany for family reasons.
- tim333 3y ago
  >Sabine Hossenfelder is a Research Fellow at the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies. >Her research is looking for the best way to search for experimental evidence of quantum gravity. https://www.cas.lmu.de/en/people-at-cas/details/sabine-hossenfelder-c84d297c.html https://www.cas.lmu.de/en/people-at-cas/details/sabine-hosse...

gfcyugyu88 3y ago

There's research showing that, at least as late as several years ago, turnover in academics was increasing (in the sense that the average/median length of time in academics was decreasing), and probability of exiting academics was uncorrelated with measures of research quality. So it's not just Dr. Hossenfelder. I think there's a lot of variability in experiences. If you are in a supportive environment and integrated well into "the system" and then move into another supportive environment, I can't exactly say things go effortlessly, but you're more likely to have a good experience. If anything isn't lined up perfectly, you're more likely to have a hellish experience. I was a tenured professor, left my position for a variety of reasons, and got another position in (in a university) elsewhere and I wrestle with whether or not I'm doing the right thing every day. The basic problem is people are expected to bring in money to universities first and foremost, and be famous second, with a pool of money coming from the federal government, that isn't big enough to support everyone who wants to do research and can do it well. On top of this is how fame and monies are allocated: based on popularity essentially. So what gets funded is popular, fame is due to what's popular, etc. It sounds a little edgelord but I mean that in the strictest possible sociology of science way. So to convince the right people, you need to do research that everyone agrees on, and that is likely to be uninteresting in some sense etc. What doesn't work now is someone not bringing in money, who says "hey, how about we try something new that we don't know about?" You're actively punished for doing something off-trend. My guess is it varies by field but currently academics is a disaster in my opinion. It's remarkable to me actually to hear someone like Dr. Hossenfelder say the exact same things that I think and hear others complaining about every single day, in a completely absolutely different field. If you don't believe me or Dr. Hossenfelder, look at Peter Higgs, or Katalin Karikó. For every one of these stories there's hundreds or thousands you don't hear about because the absurdity of it just doesn't become quite that clear.

porompompero 3y ago
"If anything isn't lined up perfectly, you're more likely to have a hellish experience"... imagine you start working in a group led by someone with preferences for hiring like-minded people or other biases... in 10 years of career I have seen biases involving religion, family, region...

ycombinatrix 3y ago

she got that grant no? did i misread the article

em-bee 3y ago
she got grants for other stuff, but not the specific topic that she was interested in.

m_fayer 3y ago

Personal anecdata with a decently large sample size of my friend circle: I can introduce you to low double-digit number of promising and passionate scientists who didn't make it 5 years past their phd for the exact reasons that Dr. Hossenfelder points out. And they can all say the same thing about their friend-circles. They're not the HN crowd...