4 ms·

Because birth certificates don't have DNA. Social security numbers were never meant to be used for identification. Etc.

croes 3y ago
But before you send someone to prison you should be sure you investigated properly. Did they question any relatives of him?
- wpietri 3y ago
  In our system, one of the most serious crimes is inconveniencing a cop while poor.
  - nlitened 3y ago
    How often does it actually happen that rich people give money to cops who conduct a proper investigation (before or after)? Looks rather unbelievable to me.
    - cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
      That’s not really how it goes. There are layers to it. Above all though, poor people are gross and a nuisance, whereas employed family men are humans just like you and me. …obviously not my own opinion.
    - Ekaros 3y ago
      There is no direct bribery outside elected officials. But there is lot of nepotism have the right connections and those in power will sort things out by ordering lower levels to make it go away.
    - Xylakant 3y ago
      You don't need to give money to a cop to make that happen. People that have no money are an easy target for any kind of abuse, including from cops. They have no lobby. No media outrage if a poor person is falsely imprisoned. No lawyers coming to hound you. The person may even not be in a state alert enough to understand what's going on. A wealthy person has favors to call in, lawyers on call, all the things that entirely legally make a cops live hard. So now, you're a cop and under pressure to arrest someone in a case. Homeless or mansion owner, who do you pick?
    - kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
      I was nearly killed last year by a negligent driver and sustained significant injuries. If the driver hadn't had a suspension, the cop would have let him go without any tickets whatsoever. He got one ticket for the suspension and was given a wrist slap punishment. The cop ignored the testimony of an eyewitness who saw everything, turned off his bodycam for 18 minutes to ensure the witness statement wasn't recorded, and was conciliatory toward the driver, literally saying it wasn't his fault. The prosecutor issued me a notice to testify in court only three days in advance and was uninterested in knowing what happened to me or doing anything once the defendant and cop didn't bother to show up. The "trial" was held four months after the collision. The police department took five months to release the bodycam video. Business as usual for the American injustice system. You don't have to bribe the police if they're already biased in your favor.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      The cops dealing with poor people are often different from the ones dealing with rich people. But let’s say you are in a city with lots of poor (unhoused) and rich people: the cops are pretty mean to everyone in those, since they get beat down pretty quickly. Move over next door tot eh suburb that ships unhoused people next door, the cops are much nicer.
    - wpietri 3y ago
      That's not at all what I said. I'm just saying that cops are on average more responsive to the needs of the "right" people than the "wrong" ones. And in the US, having money (e.g., nice house, nice car, or here, a literal nice bank balance) does a lot to make you right. Part of that is, I'm sure, their own interests. If they throw a rich person in jail for no good reason, it's much more likely to come back on them than if it's some homeless dude. But part of it's just that it's the implicit job of cops to enforce not just legal order, but the social order.
  - PKop 3y ago
    If this were true, we wouldn't have homeless encampments, open drug use and street crime in major American cities.
    - BeFlatXIII 3y ago
      Those don't inconvenience cops. They drive right on by until someone else throws enough of a fit for them to do an anti-homeless sweep.
      - wpietri 3y ago
        Exactly. If anything, I think homeless encampments are proof of this. It's not like homeless people are generally eager to cluster together; as both cause and effect, the level of mental illness and general dysfunction among the homeless is off the charts. In my neighborhood, the homeless are pretty well distributed, one or two people here and there. But I'd expect that in cities with more of an anti-homeless bias, there's a strong incentive to collect in places that are out of the way for cops.
        PKop 3y ago
        I don't understand how any of you can see this as a lack of will from police rather than political policy coming from above them. Here is thorough documentary outlining over and over again police prevented from enforcing law by politicians, who also don't charge or incarcerate criminals who cops arrest repeatedly. https://youtu.be/bpAi70WWBlw?si=yovLyNLoQzjHmomo https://youtu.be/bpAi70WWBlw?si=yovLyNLoQzjHmomo Similar policies exist in other cities like San Francisco.
        wpietri 3y ago
        I never said it was a lack of will from police. And I also don't think a 5-year-old pants-wetting video from a company well known for pushing right-wing views will convince me of much of anything. Especially that Seattle was dying 5 years ago, given that it doesn't seem to be dead. [1] Homelessness is not a problem that will get solved with violence, which is what police have the monopoly on. It won't get solve with criminalizing homelessness, either, because it's mostly not a choice people make, but a situation they end up in. So I think it's generally good that cops generally ignore the homeless, because as this article shows, bad things can happen when they don't. [1] except for comedic value: https://theneedling.com/2023/09/20/after-courageous-3-year-battle-with-right-wing-media-seattle-dead-at-age-172/ https://theneedling.com/2023/09/20/after-courageous-3-year-b...
- hinkley 3y ago
  School mates…
toomuchtodo 3y ago
This is one of those edge cases where DNA databases are invaluable, as they do not lie (retests can be done if an error is suspected) and the data (genetic provenance) cannot be destroyed (such that a vital record or entire archive could be). You can “walk” the vital record web/matrix from known good identity to unknown identity. Vital records should probably have DNA attached. Maybe eventually they will.
- Hendrikto 3y ago
  What happens when that data inevitable gets stolen? The fact that biometrics cannot be changed or removed is also a huge drawback.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
ktosobcy 3y ago
Would proper IDs helped avoid the issue? Not necesarily state-of-the-art biometric ones that we have already (on this side of the pond) but even rudimentary with owner photo, personal ID and document ID?

But before you send someone to prison you should be sure you investigated properly. Did they question any relatives of him?

wpietri 3y ago
In our system, one of the most serious crimes is inconveniencing a cop while poor.
- nlitened 3y ago
  How often does it actually happen that rich people give money to cops who conduct a proper investigation (before or after)? Looks rather unbelievable to me.
  - cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
    That’s not really how it goes. There are layers to it. Above all though, poor people are gross and a nuisance, whereas employed family men are humans just like you and me. …obviously not my own opinion.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    There is no direct bribery outside elected officials. But there is lot of nepotism have the right connections and those in power will sort things out by ordering lower levels to make it go away.
  - Xylakant 3y ago
    You don't need to give money to a cop to make that happen. People that have no money are an easy target for any kind of abuse, including from cops. They have no lobby. No media outrage if a poor person is falsely imprisoned. No lawyers coming to hound you. The person may even not be in a state alert enough to understand what's going on. A wealthy person has favors to call in, lawyers on call, all the things that entirely legally make a cops live hard. So now, you're a cop and under pressure to arrest someone in a case. Homeless or mansion owner, who do you pick?
  - kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
    I was nearly killed last year by a negligent driver and sustained significant injuries. If the driver hadn't had a suspension, the cop would have let him go without any tickets whatsoever. He got one ticket for the suspension and was given a wrist slap punishment. The cop ignored the testimony of an eyewitness who saw everything, turned off his bodycam for 18 minutes to ensure the witness statement wasn't recorded, and was conciliatory toward the driver, literally saying it wasn't his fault. The prosecutor issued me a notice to testify in court only three days in advance and was uninterested in knowing what happened to me or doing anything once the defendant and cop didn't bother to show up. The "trial" was held four months after the collision. The police department took five months to release the bodycam video. Business as usual for the American injustice system. You don't have to bribe the police if they're already biased in your favor.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    The cops dealing with poor people are often different from the ones dealing with rich people. But let’s say you are in a city with lots of poor (unhoused) and rich people: the cops are pretty mean to everyone in those, since they get beat down pretty quickly. Move over next door tot eh suburb that ships unhoused people next door, the cops are much nicer.
  - wpietri 3y ago
    That's not at all what I said. I'm just saying that cops are on average more responsive to the needs of the "right" people than the "wrong" ones. And in the US, having money (e.g., nice house, nice car, or here, a literal nice bank balance) does a lot to make you right. Part of that is, I'm sure, their own interests. If they throw a rich person in jail for no good reason, it's much more likely to come back on them than if it's some homeless dude. But part of it's just that it's the implicit job of cops to enforce not just legal order, but the social order.
- PKop 3y ago
  If this were true, we wouldn't have homeless encampments, open drug use and street crime in major American cities.
  - BeFlatXIII 3y ago
    Those don't inconvenience cops. They drive right on by until someone else throws enough of a fit for them to do an anti-homeless sweep.
    - wpietri 3y ago
      Exactly. If anything, I think homeless encampments are proof of this. It's not like homeless people are generally eager to cluster together; as both cause and effect, the level of mental illness and general dysfunction among the homeless is off the charts. In my neighborhood, the homeless are pretty well distributed, one or two people here and there. But I'd expect that in cities with more of an anti-homeless bias, there's a strong incentive to collect in places that are out of the way for cops.
      - PKop 3y ago
        I don't understand how any of you can see this as a lack of will from police rather than political policy coming from above them. Here is thorough documentary outlining over and over again police prevented from enforcing law by politicians, who also don't charge or incarcerate criminals who cops arrest repeatedly. https://youtu.be/bpAi70WWBlw?si=yovLyNLoQzjHmomo https://youtu.be/bpAi70WWBlw?si=yovLyNLoQzjHmomo Similar policies exist in other cities like San Francisco.
        wpietri 3y ago
        I never said it was a lack of will from police. And I also don't think a 5-year-old pants-wetting video from a company well known for pushing right-wing views will convince me of much of anything. Especially that Seattle was dying 5 years ago, given that it doesn't seem to be dead. [1] Homelessness is not a problem that will get solved with violence, which is what police have the monopoly on. It won't get solve with criminalizing homelessness, either, because it's mostly not a choice people make, but a situation they end up in. So I think it's generally good that cops generally ignore the homeless, because as this article shows, bad things can happen when they don't. [1] except for comedic value: https://theneedling.com/2023/09/20/after-courageous-3-year-battle-with-right-wing-media-seattle-dead-at-age-172/ https://theneedling.com/2023/09/20/after-courageous-3-year-b...
hinkley 3y ago
School mates…

toomuchtodo 3y ago

This is one of those edge cases where DNA databases are invaluable, as they do not lie (retests can be done if an error is suspected) and the data (genetic provenance) cannot be destroyed (such that a vital record or entire archive could be). You can “walk” the vital record web/matrix from known good identity to unknown identity. Vital records should probably have DNA attached. Maybe eventually they will.

Hendrikto 3y ago
What happens when that data inevitable gets stolen? The fact that biometrics cannot be changed or removed is also a huge drawback.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

ktosobcy 3y ago

Would proper IDs helped avoid the issue? Not necesarily state-of-the-art biometric ones that we have already (on this side of the pond) but even rudimentary with owner photo, personal ID and document ID?