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We need to seriously reform how treaties are entered into. I'm not going to say "all treaties are bad" but when governments are saying "we're not going to even

We need to seriously reform how treaties are entered into. I'm not going to say "all treaties are bad" but when governments are saying "we're not going to even entertain what you're asking for because we can't get out of this treaty", something has gone terribly wrong and you don't have a democracy anymore.

bdw5204 3y ago
The thing is any government that says "we can't get out of this treaty" is lying. There is no such thing as "international law" and all nations exist in a state of anarchy with each other. That's why they, historically speaking, have constantly waged war with each other. If a nation wishes to get out of a treaty, it can simply refuse to follow it. If other nations don't like this, they can appeal to the supreme court of nations which is called war and let might decide who is right. Treaties are, and by their nature must be, at-will contracts that exist as long as all parties to them wish for them to continue to exist. Every treaty is as worthless as the Kellogg-Briand Pact[0] which purported to outlaw war until Germany, Italy and Japan suddenly decided to stop following it and start a second world war. There are many other examples in political science where politicians have spun elaborate Gordian knots[1] that, for some reason, they pretend they cannot just cut with a common sword. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellogg–Briand_Pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellogg–Briand_Pact [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot
SpicyLemonZest 3y ago
"We can't" is, in many situations and certainly when it comes to international treaties, a polite way to say "we don't think it's worth the costs". Nobody can make a country stay in a treaty if it doesn't want to, but it often doesn't make economic sense to blow up your international trade agreements over specific policies that you might prefer to be set differently.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
Never gonna happen. Treaties are how american corporations enforce US laws world wide. The "stakeholders" leverage the economic and military might of the US government via lobbying to have their interests protected. Besides, if the USA really wanted out, it would just get out. Nothing they can do about it.
vajrabum 3y ago
Not going to be easy to change. The other thing is that it takes a 2/3s vote of the Senate to ratify a treaty. Article VI US Constitution ... This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

bdw5204 3y ago

The thing is any government that says "we can't get out of this treaty" is lying. There is no such thing as "international law" and all nations exist in a state of anarchy with each other. That's why they, historically speaking, have constantly waged war with each other. If a nation wishes to get out of a treaty, it can simply refuse to follow it. If other nations don't like this, they can appeal to the supreme court of nations which is called war and let might decide who is right. Treaties are, and by their nature must be, at-will contracts that exist as long as all parties to them wish for them to continue to exist. Every treaty is as worthless as the Kellogg-Briand Pact[0] which purported to outlaw war until Germany, Italy and Japan suddenly decided to stop following it and start a second world war. There are many other examples in political science where politicians have spun elaborate Gordian knots[1] that, for some reason, they pretend they cannot just cut with a common sword. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellogg–Briand_Pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellogg–Briand_Pact [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot

SpicyLemonZest 3y ago

"We can't" is, in many situations and certainly when it comes to international treaties, a polite way to say "we don't think it's worth the costs". Nobody can make a country stay in a treaty if it doesn't want to, but it often doesn't make economic sense to blow up your international trade agreements over specific policies that you might prefer to be set differently.

matheusmoreira 3y ago

Never gonna happen. Treaties are how american corporations enforce US laws world wide. The "stakeholders" leverage the economic and military might of the US government via lobbying to have their interests protected. Besides, if the USA really wanted out, it would just get out. Nothing they can do about it.

vajrabum 3y ago

Not going to be easy to change. The other thing is that it takes a 2/3s vote of the Senate to ratify a treaty. Article VI US Constitution ... This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.