8 ms·

Apple should provide an option to opt-out of Siri "learn from app" for ALL applications. At present, this must be done individually for every app, https://www.

Apple should provide an option to opt-out of Siri "learn from app" for ALL applications. At present, this must be done individually for every app, https://www.imore.com/how-stop-siri-learning-how-you-use-apps-iphone-and-ipad https://www.imore.com/how-stop-siri-learning-how-you-use-app.... When you later install new apps after setting up the device, you have to remember to go into Settings and opt-out again, for every app, forever. How many people know that iOS devices will default to Siri reading plaintext for all apps, including E2EE messengers?

klausa 3y ago
You can just disable Siri if you're that concerned? Edit: Turns out — you can't! See the reply below.
- walterbell 3y ago
  From the article: The user is given the option to enable or not enable Siri, Apple's virtual assistant. But enabling only refers to whether you use Siri's voice control. Siri collects data in the background from other apps you use, regardless of your choice, unless you understand how to go into the settings and specifically change that,’ says Lindqvist.
  - klausa 3y ago
    You're right, I somehow missed that paragraph — I swear I read the article before commenting.
  - willvarfar 3y ago
    Not condoning or anything, but perhaps the thinking is that, if the user can re-enabling siri at a later date, they don't want siri to start with no memory?
    - walterbell 3y ago
      If/when a user actively consents to "learn from app", it's no different than setting up a new device, e.g. mail downloaded from IMAP server, data transferred from old device, or from cloud services. Now imagining a EULA for Helpful Pre-Stalking..
    - pbasista 3y ago
      Why would you think that? If I enable some personal assistant at some point in time, I absolutely do expect it to start with no memory.
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  The problem is that 'Siri' is a pretty ill-defined term that Apple sprinkles onto a bunch of unrelated features if they have anything that sort of looks like 'learning' if you squint hard enough.
  - thejohnconway 3y ago
    It’s so strange they do that, given that Siri doesn’t have good rep!
- diggan 3y ago
  > You can just disable Siri if you're that concerned? Apple fights you from disabling Siri as much as they can. I've tried to disable Siri multiple times, but it turns off other unrelated features/services, so it's basically impossible. For example, if you're using CarPlay, it's required that Siri is enabled, even if you don't use the voice controls.
threeseed 3y ago
[flagged]
- walterbell 3y ago
  Excellent. Then Apple can provide one-click, one-time opt out for all apps, instead of consuming CPU cycles, battery life and hundreds of avoidable and unwanted user actions over the lifetime of a phone. > It never gets sent to Apple and no other application can read it. Malware can read it. See the list of Apple iOS Security Updates. If Apple doesn't receive the data and the user doesn't want the data, let's avoid collecting it.
  - threeseed 3y ago
    Users want to be able to search for apps, contacts, mail etc which is why it’s a standard feature of every operating system. The idea that there is this demand to fully disable it is bizarre to me. And if you have malware that can access the entire file system then reading a Siri search index is the least of your troubles.
    - walterbell 3y ago
      > The idea that there is this demand to fully disable it is bizarre to me. Apple provides a setting to disable Siri. It does not function as users expect. Either remove the setting and state that users are forced to use Siri, or improve the usability. > Users want to be able to search for apps, contacts, mail etc which is why it’s a standard feature of every operating system. Typically an optional feature with one setting to disable it, e.g. people have long disabled Windows Indexing to improve performance and battery life. Or to use a 3rd-party search tool. Why was Siri ("AI") conflated with Spotlight (search) on iOS? > If you have malware that can access the entire file system then reading a Siri search index is the least of your troubles. With malware that can access the entire file system, we don't want to provide a gift-wrapped search and user behavior index that has been quietly collected by Apple. Let malware do its own CPU-intensive rummaging through each app, increasing the odds of detection.
    - 3y ago
zakki 3y ago
The best solution is to set this as opt-in instead.
- amelius 3y ago
  And not one with dark patterns where you are asked to opt-in multiple times at inconvenient moments.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- Clubber 3y ago
  I haven't setup an iPhone in a while, but last time I setup a Mac, it asked me to configure Siri or Skip/Later, etc. That's opt in to me.
  - layer8 3y ago
    From the article: “The user is given the option to enable or not enable Siri, Apple's virtual assistant. But enabling only refers to whether you use Siri's voice control. Siri collects data in the background from other apps you use, regardless of your choice, unless you understand how to go into the settings and specifically change that”.
    - Clubber 3y ago
      A concern with Siri is it sends your voice data to a server to parse. When Siri is disabled, what data is collected via third party apps? I would imagine any time you use voice as a command in an app the iPhone send the data to a server to parse, even in third party apps. Is that the concern, or is it other data?
      - layer8 3y ago
        "Siri" is not just the voice assistant, Apple also uses that designation for other "intelligent" features, like "Siri Suggestions" [0]. The related personal information is shared across devices via Apple servers. Apple states that any analytics shared with Apple are anonymized [1], but users may still prefer to not share analytics in the first place. However, that can't be opted out globally, it can only be disabled per app [0]. Except maybe by turning off Siri in iCloud [2]? It's not clear. That's the criticism, it's difficult for users to understand what settings are enabling or disabling what exactly. It's quite complicated overall, and difficult to tell what you are and aren't sharing. [0] https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/about-siri-suggestions-iph6f94af287 https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/about-siri-suggestion... [1] https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/siri-suggestions-search/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/siri-suggestions... [2] https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/tell-siri-about-yourself-iphfaf30bdbd/17.0/ios/17.0#ipha9a0dd043 https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/tell-siri-about-yours...
everdrive 3y ago
It would be much better if I could just uninstall Siri. I don't want a voice assistant, and never have.
- throw0101c 3y ago
  > It would be much better if I could just uninstall Siri. I don't want a voice assistant, and never have. I just don't turn it on and so never use it.
  - walterbell 3y ago
    Per the article, you are still using "Siri" (non-voice features), even if you never enabled Siri-for-voice: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39928357 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39928357
  - jSully24 3y ago
    Car Play will not enable with Siri turned off (at least in my 2019 Subaru).
    - throw0101c 3y ago
      > Car Play will not enable with Siri turned off (at least in my 2019 Subaru). I drive a 2003 Golf: there is no Car Play.
    - lancesells 3y ago
      Same here. I do think it makes some sense in that case.
      - diggan 3y ago
        I'm also in the situation where I use Siri for nothing, but I want to use CarPlay. I don't use the voice control for anything, in the car or otherwise. How does it make sense to force me to have Siri enabled?
gruez 3y ago
>How many people know that iOS devices will default to Siri reading plaintext for all apps, including E2EE messengers? Is there more on what Siri "learn from app" actually does? Does it scrape entire screen contents? Or just metadata? Or only what the app developer decides to send?
- layer8 3y ago
  Apple can change this silently in the future, as long as it remains compatible with their T&C.
- kemayo 3y ago
  My understanding is that the "learn from app" setting relates to it watching out for NSUserActivity, which is something the app developer has to explicitly send out. The app developer is motivated to do so because NSUserActivity powers a lot of system-integration features. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/foundation/nsuseractivity https://developer.apple.com/documentation/foundation/nsusera...
traceroute66 3y ago
> Apple should provide an option to opt-out of Siri "learn from app" for ALL applications. You can. Use the free Apple Configurator tool to generate a profile that has: - "Allow Siri" unchecked - "Allow Siri Suggestions" unchecked Apple Configuratior is great. You can disable all sorts of things, e.g. iCloud access. If your iPhone is on $org MDM, you can do the same on MDM.
- herpdyderp 3y ago
  The Apple Configurator is only allowed for a Managed Apple ID.
  - traceroute66 3y ago
    > The Apple Configurator is only allowed for a Managed Apple ID. Huh ? Its available freely via the App Store. No restrictions whatsoever on who may download and use it.
    - herpdyderp 3y ago
      I downloaded it and it won't let me do anything. When I try to login it says I need a managed Apple ID.
      - traceroute66 3y ago
        I've been using it for many years now, multiple installations on new macs and I've never seen such a thing. I can only think it must be something specific to your setup. Looking at the version I presently have installed, there is an Account menu and it says "sign in...", so I'm clearly not signed in. Managed Apple ID seems to be some sort of MDM-style thing[1] , I've certainly never done that and no idea how it works ! I have always just used Apple Configurator in plain-vanilla mode. [1] https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/managed-apple-ids-depcaa668a58/web https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/managed-apple-ids...
        3y ago
apantel 3y ago
Man I am really starting to hate these big tech companies. Everything they do is designed to be as invasive as possible.

klausa 3y ago

You can just disable Siri if you're that concerned? Edit: Turns out — you can't! See the reply below.

walterbell 3y ago
From the article: The user is given the option to enable or not enable Siri, Apple's virtual assistant. But enabling only refers to whether you use Siri's voice control. Siri collects data in the background from other apps you use, regardless of your choice, unless you understand how to go into the settings and specifically change that,’ says Lindqvist.
- klausa 3y ago
  You're right, I somehow missed that paragraph — I swear I read the article before commenting.
- willvarfar 3y ago
  Not condoning or anything, but perhaps the thinking is that, if the user can re-enabling siri at a later date, they don't want siri to start with no memory?
  - walterbell 3y ago
    If/when a user actively consents to "learn from app", it's no different than setting up a new device, e.g. mail downloaded from IMAP server, data transferred from old device, or from cloud services. Now imagining a EULA for Helpful Pre-Stalking..
  - pbasista 3y ago
    Why would you think that? If I enable some personal assistant at some point in time, I absolutely do expect it to start with no memory.
madeofpalk 3y ago
The problem is that 'Siri' is a pretty ill-defined term that Apple sprinkles onto a bunch of unrelated features if they have anything that sort of looks like 'learning' if you squint hard enough.
- thejohnconway 3y ago
  It’s so strange they do that, given that Siri doesn’t have good rep!
diggan 3y ago
> You can just disable Siri if you're that concerned? Apple fights you from disabling Siri as much as they can. I've tried to disable Siri multiple times, but it turns off other unrelated features/services, so it's basically impossible. For example, if you're using CarPlay, it's required that Siri is enabled, even if you don't use the voice controls.

threeseed 3y ago

[flagged]

walterbell 3y ago
Excellent. Then Apple can provide one-click, one-time opt out for all apps, instead of consuming CPU cycles, battery life and hundreds of avoidable and unwanted user actions over the lifetime of a phone. > It never gets sent to Apple and no other application can read it. Malware can read it. See the list of Apple iOS Security Updates. If Apple doesn't receive the data and the user doesn't want the data, let's avoid collecting it.
- threeseed 3y ago
  Users want to be able to search for apps, contacts, mail etc which is why it’s a standard feature of every operating system. The idea that there is this demand to fully disable it is bizarre to me. And if you have malware that can access the entire file system then reading a Siri search index is the least of your troubles.
  - walterbell 3y ago
    > The idea that there is this demand to fully disable it is bizarre to me. Apple provides a setting to disable Siri. It does not function as users expect. Either remove the setting and state that users are forced to use Siri, or improve the usability. > Users want to be able to search for apps, contacts, mail etc which is why it’s a standard feature of every operating system. Typically an optional feature with one setting to disable it, e.g. people have long disabled Windows Indexing to improve performance and battery life. Or to use a 3rd-party search tool. Why was Siri ("AI") conflated with Spotlight (search) on iOS? > If you have malware that can access the entire file system then reading a Siri search index is the least of your troubles. With malware that can access the entire file system, we don't want to provide a gift-wrapped search and user behavior index that has been quietly collected by Apple. Let malware do its own CPU-intensive rummaging through each app, increasing the odds of detection.
  - 3y ago

zakki 3y ago

The best solution is to set this as opt-in instead.

amelius 3y ago
And not one with dark patterns where you are asked to opt-in multiple times at inconvenient moments.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Clubber 3y ago
I haven't setup an iPhone in a while, but last time I setup a Mac, it asked me to configure Siri or Skip/Later, etc. That's opt in to me.
- layer8 3y ago
  From the article: “The user is given the option to enable or not enable Siri, Apple's virtual assistant. But enabling only refers to whether you use Siri's voice control. Siri collects data in the background from other apps you use, regardless of your choice, unless you understand how to go into the settings and specifically change that”.
  - Clubber 3y ago
    A concern with Siri is it sends your voice data to a server to parse. When Siri is disabled, what data is collected via third party apps? I would imagine any time you use voice as a command in an app the iPhone send the data to a server to parse, even in third party apps. Is that the concern, or is it other data?
    - layer8 3y ago
      "Siri" is not just the voice assistant, Apple also uses that designation for other "intelligent" features, like "Siri Suggestions" [0]. The related personal information is shared across devices via Apple servers. Apple states that any analytics shared with Apple are anonymized [1], but users may still prefer to not share analytics in the first place. However, that can't be opted out globally, it can only be disabled per app [0]. Except maybe by turning off Siri in iCloud [2]? It's not clear. That's the criticism, it's difficult for users to understand what settings are enabling or disabling what exactly. It's quite complicated overall, and difficult to tell what you are and aren't sharing. [0] https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/about-siri-suggestions-iph6f94af287 https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/about-siri-suggestion... [1] https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/siri-suggestions-search/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/siri-suggestions... [2] https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/tell-siri-about-yourself-iphfaf30bdbd/17.0/ios/17.0#ipha9a0dd043 https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/tell-siri-about-yours...

everdrive 3y ago

It would be much better if I could just uninstall Siri. I don't want a voice assistant, and never have.

throw0101c 3y ago
> It would be much better if I could just uninstall Siri. I don't want a voice assistant, and never have. I just don't turn it on and so never use it.
- walterbell 3y ago
  Per the article, you are still using "Siri" (non-voice features), even if you never enabled Siri-for-voice: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39928357 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39928357
- jSully24 3y ago
  Car Play will not enable with Siri turned off (at least in my 2019 Subaru).
  - throw0101c 3y ago
    > Car Play will not enable with Siri turned off (at least in my 2019 Subaru). I drive a 2003 Golf: there is no Car Play.
  - lancesells 3y ago
    Same here. I do think it makes some sense in that case.
    - diggan 3y ago
      I'm also in the situation where I use Siri for nothing, but I want to use CarPlay. I don't use the voice control for anything, in the car or otherwise. How does it make sense to force me to have Siri enabled?

gruez 3y ago

>How many people know that iOS devices will default to Siri reading plaintext for all apps, including E2EE messengers? Is there more on what Siri "learn from app" actually does? Does it scrape entire screen contents? Or just metadata? Or only what the app developer decides to send?

layer8 3y ago
Apple can change this silently in the future, as long as it remains compatible with their T&C.
kemayo 3y ago
My understanding is that the "learn from app" setting relates to it watching out for NSUserActivity, which is something the app developer has to explicitly send out. The app developer is motivated to do so because NSUserActivity powers a lot of system-integration features. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/foundation/nsuseractivity https://developer.apple.com/documentation/foundation/nsusera...

traceroute66 3y ago

> Apple should provide an option to opt-out of Siri "learn from app" for ALL applications. You can. Use the free Apple Configurator tool to generate a profile that has: - "Allow Siri" unchecked - "Allow Siri Suggestions" unchecked Apple Configuratior is great. You can disable all sorts of things, e.g. iCloud access. If your iPhone is on $org MDM, you can do the same on MDM.

herpdyderp 3y ago
The Apple Configurator is only allowed for a Managed Apple ID.
- traceroute66 3y ago
  > The Apple Configurator is only allowed for a Managed Apple ID. Huh ? Its available freely via the App Store. No restrictions whatsoever on who may download and use it.
  - herpdyderp 3y ago
    I downloaded it and it won't let me do anything. When I try to login it says I need a managed Apple ID.
    - traceroute66 3y ago
      I've been using it for many years now, multiple installations on new macs and I've never seen such a thing. I can only think it must be something specific to your setup. Looking at the version I presently have installed, there is an Account menu and it says "sign in...", so I'm clearly not signed in. Managed Apple ID seems to be some sort of MDM-style thing[1] , I've certainly never done that and no idea how it works ! I have always just used Apple Configurator in plain-vanilla mode. [1] https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/managed-apple-ids-depcaa668a58/web https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/managed-apple-ids...
      - 3y ago

apantel 3y ago

Man I am really starting to hate these big tech companies. Everything they do is designed to be as invasive as possible.