6 ms·

When this latest series of attacks started there was still some room to charitably interpret what the IDF had to deal with, but we've had months of constant act

When this latest series of attacks started there was still some room to charitably interpret what the IDF had to deal with, but we've had months of constant action and very obvious suffering and death that the IDF has been imposing upon Gaza, either intentionally or through sheer apathy. They've long since lost the "oh but think critically" excuse. The amount of suffering they are inflicting is not at all justified, it has gone far beyond just a tit-for-tat retaliation.

zmgsabst 3y ago
[flagged]
- dotnet00 3y ago
  "We all should have worked harder" is such an absurd thing to be saying alongside that sorry excuse you've presented. The entire point of human rights and rules of war is that there are certain rights the people of even small countries that started the fight are entitled to. You don't just get to excuse relentlessly bombing hospitals and aid workers. "We thought it was a military target, but we will not disclose why, nor will we disclose what we're doing to not make this mistake in the future" is not a get out of jail free card for genocides, especially when it never seems to come with any actual signs of improvement. Campaigns to stop genocides in other places having been unsuccessful does not justify smaller genocides taking place elsewhere. That's not critical thinking, that's whataboutism. Particularly considering that not only is America's supposedly democratic leadership not condemning the atrocities, they're actively offering the aid to continue it while claiming to want peace. Being from India, I can relate to the troubles with islamic terrorism that Israel has faced, which is why I mentioned having initially been sympathetic. But if India engaged in this large scale indiscriminate slaughter of muslims, it'd have been rendered a pariah on a similar tier as Russia. As it stands it's already constantly accused of being undemocratic and violating the rights of Muslims, despite never having undertaken deliberate, remorseless government sanctioned slaughter of this scale. It took far less for the current Indian prime minister to be banned from Western nations when he was chief minister of a state. All he had to do was fail to stop a much less deadly riot and get repeatedly exonerated from accusations of wrongdoing by several courts.
  - zmgsabst 3y ago
    Okay — what specific rules of war do you believe have been broken? …what specific atrocities? I was responding to the demand for “tit-for-tat” and claims this was unusually brutal; neither of those are true. You’re now making different, non—specified claims in emotionally charged language. Be specific; think critically.
    - tmnvix 3y ago
      Denial of aid. Collective punishment.
      - Sporktacular 3y ago
        Also war crime.
    - dotnet00 3y ago
      I've pointed out two things, bombing hospitals and bombing aid workers. There's also targeting children, having no qualms about the collateral damage when they bomb houses to get at single targets and so on. Using systems like the one described in the article to offload further responsibility, such that if by some miracle Western nations do try to introduce the IDF to the concept of accountability, they can just blame the computer and promise to do better. I'm using emotionally charged language because these are supposed to be emotional topics. "Critical thinking" on its own is just a pathway to justifying extreme inhumane cruelty.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > bombing hospitals and bombing aid workers Yes on aid workers. The hospitals, unfortunately, appear to have been used for military purposes by Hamas. That makes them valid targets.
        temporarely 3y ago
        I was watching one of those ww2 movies with typical evil Germans (Nazis) in it and there was this scene where the SS officer dude is about to burn down a hamlet or something because of "partisans" hiding in there. We, Americans, are being forced to change our morality and humanity to suite an "indispensable ally". (Both of which are definitely open to question). That said, how cute that they are blaming both the 10/7 event ("intelligence failure") and their daily killing (for our viewing pleasure) of civilians, on AI. I think "intelligence failure" is accurate but not in the sense that was offered. It is an intelligence failure of a people to recognize that they are on the wrong side of humanity and history. You can't blame that on AI. I think it a cultural failing - an overly inflated and exaggerated sense of historic grievances, a conceit regarding God Almighty's affections, and a misread of the Global Room, and clear contempt for the "nations" watching. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/chef-jose-andres-says-israel-targeted-his-aid-workers-systematically-car-by-car-2024-04-03/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/chef-jose-andres-s...
- the-smug-one 3y ago
  >When people say you’re not “thinking critically”, they’re saying you’re trying to portray one of the modern conflicts with the lowest civilian deaths (versus combatants) as a crime against humanity while ignoring numerous others — eg, genocides in Niger or Myanmar, and forced expulsions in Armenia/Azerbaijan. Why is it that this is always mentioned? As if ignorance of one crime against humanity makes us incapable of criticizing the other? And where exactly are the public spokespeople from our governments talking about how any of these genocides are justified as the killers have a "right to defend themselves"? Not to talk about how an attack that killed 4000 people justifies killing 25000 non-combatants. > They’re not interested in a tit-for-tat retaliation: they’re intending to destroy the political and military structures that made the attack possible. A smaller country can’t cry “that isn’t fair!” when they start a fight and get beaten — this isn’t a scuffle between kids at school. This is not even comparable to what is occurring when the world is condemning Israel's actions. If Israel was interested in removing the political structures that made Hamas's attack supported by Gaza then they could've stopped the settlement of the west bank, supported the stability of the Palestinian state, and countless of other actions which would have lowered the risk of creating terrorists in Gaza.
  - chgs 3y ago
    People hold israel to a higher standard as it’s a modern western democracy and not some tinpot banana republic or military junta.
    - myth_drannon 3y ago
      Well Turkey is a democracy(and a NATO member), Armenia is too. It's the fixation with Jews that compels such scrutiny of everything that Israel does.
      - kys_now 3y ago
        [dead]
      - chgs 3y ago
        Turkey only gets away with what it does due to its strategic importance at the entrance to the Black Sea.
- yawaramin 3y ago
  > We all should have worked harder at solving the problem, but a genocidal militant group Yes, 'we all' should have worked harder when Benjamin Netanyahu actively funded Hamas and expended all possible efforts to prevent a viable Palestinian state. Genius thinking right there.
- Sporktacular 3y ago
  "the political and military structures" Then why no aid? Why no water, electricity, economy or medical infrastructure either? "inevitable" Yes, they made us do it. See what they made us do? "Niger or Myanmar, Armenia/Azerbaijan." Hey everyone, look over there! No one will take blind defenders seriously.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
erickf1 3y ago
Since when has war ever been tit-for-tat. Since the beginning of time, if a nation where to attack and make war with another nation, they had to measure carefully the consequences if they were to lose... because losing meant losing everything. This is no different. Russia attacking Ukraine is no different. No one is tracing and counting every bullet Russia fires and certainly no world court is saying anything at all to Russia… or to Turkey, or Iran, or Syria, or anyone else… except for Israel. Gaza attacked Israel and like any nation that goes to war, they will either win or lose. Consider carefully before declaring war against your enemy…. Everything is at stake.
- gizmo 3y ago
  You're right that the violence and devastation Israel has laid upon Gaza has historic precedence. Genghis Khan completely destroyed cities that he considered cultural enemies, to give one example. You'll find many instances of genocide in the history books, even post WW2. Israel is not unique in that regard either. But why does it matter? Does historical barbarity justify present day barbarity? It doesn't, and we all know it doesn't. It's not the case that Israel is held to a higher standard. Russia has been widely condemned, blocked from international finance, and faces severe sanctions. On top of that, western countries have given substantial military and intelligence aid to Ukraine. Russia had reasons for their invasion of Ukraine (just like Israel has its reasons), but so what? Russia being angry at Ukraine is not a justification for destroying the country. I also take issue with your characterization that Gaza "started it". This is a 70+ year conflict with many chapters of violence in it, and innocent Palestinians make up the bulk of the casualties. Israel is not the victim here. Finally, it's not accurate to talk about Israel/Gaza as two nations at war. Israel controls everything coming in and going out of Gaza, electricity, water, etc. Palestine is not an independent country or a state, it's part of Israel except its citizens have no rights.
  - throwaway331337 3y ago
    [flagged]
- underlipton 3y ago
  >Since when has war ever been tit-for-tat. Since we had a global war which almost destroyed civilization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law)#International_humanitarian_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law)#Internat...

zmgsabst 3y ago

[flagged]

dotnet00 3y ago
"We all should have worked harder" is such an absurd thing to be saying alongside that sorry excuse you've presented. The entire point of human rights and rules of war is that there are certain rights the people of even small countries that started the fight are entitled to. You don't just get to excuse relentlessly bombing hospitals and aid workers. "We thought it was a military target, but we will not disclose why, nor will we disclose what we're doing to not make this mistake in the future" is not a get out of jail free card for genocides, especially when it never seems to come with any actual signs of improvement. Campaigns to stop genocides in other places having been unsuccessful does not justify smaller genocides taking place elsewhere. That's not critical thinking, that's whataboutism. Particularly considering that not only is America's supposedly democratic leadership not condemning the atrocities, they're actively offering the aid to continue it while claiming to want peace. Being from India, I can relate to the troubles with islamic terrorism that Israel has faced, which is why I mentioned having initially been sympathetic. But if India engaged in this large scale indiscriminate slaughter of muslims, it'd have been rendered a pariah on a similar tier as Russia. As it stands it's already constantly accused of being undemocratic and violating the rights of Muslims, despite never having undertaken deliberate, remorseless government sanctioned slaughter of this scale. It took far less for the current Indian prime minister to be banned from Western nations when he was chief minister of a state. All he had to do was fail to stop a much less deadly riot and get repeatedly exonerated from accusations of wrongdoing by several courts.
- zmgsabst 3y ago
  Okay — what specific rules of war do you believe have been broken? …what specific atrocities? I was responding to the demand for “tit-for-tat” and claims this was unusually brutal; neither of those are true. You’re now making different, non—specified claims in emotionally charged language. Be specific; think critically.
  - tmnvix 3y ago
    Denial of aid. Collective punishment.
    - Sporktacular 3y ago
      Also war crime.
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    I've pointed out two things, bombing hospitals and bombing aid workers. There's also targeting children, having no qualms about the collateral damage when they bomb houses to get at single targets and so on. Using systems like the one described in the article to offload further responsibility, such that if by some miracle Western nations do try to introduce the IDF to the concept of accountability, they can just blame the computer and promise to do better. I'm using emotionally charged language because these are supposed to be emotional topics. "Critical thinking" on its own is just a pathway to justifying extreme inhumane cruelty.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > bombing hospitals and bombing aid workers Yes on aid workers. The hospitals, unfortunately, appear to have been used for military purposes by Hamas. That makes them valid targets.
      - temporarely 3y ago
        I was watching one of those ww2 movies with typical evil Germans (Nazis) in it and there was this scene where the SS officer dude is about to burn down a hamlet or something because of "partisans" hiding in there. We, Americans, are being forced to change our morality and humanity to suite an "indispensable ally". (Both of which are definitely open to question). That said, how cute that they are blaming both the 10/7 event ("intelligence failure") and their daily killing (for our viewing pleasure) of civilians, on AI. I think "intelligence failure" is accurate but not in the sense that was offered. It is an intelligence failure of a people to recognize that they are on the wrong side of humanity and history. You can't blame that on AI. I think it a cultural failing - an overly inflated and exaggerated sense of historic grievances, a conceit regarding God Almighty's affections, and a misread of the Global Room, and clear contempt for the "nations" watching. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/chef-jose-andres-says-israel-targeted-his-aid-workers-systematically-car-by-car-2024-04-03/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/chef-jose-andres-s...
the-smug-one 3y ago
>When people say you’re not “thinking critically”, they’re saying you’re trying to portray one of the modern conflicts with the lowest civilian deaths (versus combatants) as a crime against humanity while ignoring numerous others — eg, genocides in Niger or Myanmar, and forced expulsions in Armenia/Azerbaijan. Why is it that this is always mentioned? As if ignorance of one crime against humanity makes us incapable of criticizing the other? And where exactly are the public spokespeople from our governments talking about how any of these genocides are justified as the killers have a "right to defend themselves"? Not to talk about how an attack that killed 4000 people justifies killing 25000 non-combatants. > They’re not interested in a tit-for-tat retaliation: they’re intending to destroy the political and military structures that made the attack possible. A smaller country can’t cry “that isn’t fair!” when they start a fight and get beaten — this isn’t a scuffle between kids at school. This is not even comparable to what is occurring when the world is condemning Israel's actions. If Israel was interested in removing the political structures that made Hamas's attack supported by Gaza then they could've stopped the settlement of the west bank, supported the stability of the Palestinian state, and countless of other actions which would have lowered the risk of creating terrorists in Gaza.
- chgs 3y ago
  People hold israel to a higher standard as it’s a modern western democracy and not some tinpot banana republic or military junta.
  - myth_drannon 3y ago
    Well Turkey is a democracy(and a NATO member), Armenia is too. It's the fixation with Jews that compels such scrutiny of everything that Israel does.
    - kys_now 3y ago
      [dead]
    - chgs 3y ago
      Turkey only gets away with what it does due to its strategic importance at the entrance to the Black Sea.
yawaramin 3y ago
> We all should have worked harder at solving the problem, but a genocidal militant group Yes, 'we all' should have worked harder when Benjamin Netanyahu actively funded Hamas and expended all possible efforts to prevent a viable Palestinian state. Genius thinking right there.
Sporktacular 3y ago
"the political and military structures" Then why no aid? Why no water, electricity, economy or medical infrastructure either? "inevitable" Yes, they made us do it. See what they made us do? "Niger or Myanmar, Armenia/Azerbaijan." Hey everyone, look over there! No one will take blind defenders seriously.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

erickf1 3y ago

Since when has war ever been tit-for-tat. Since the beginning of time, if a nation where to attack and make war with another nation, they had to measure carefully the consequences if they were to lose... because losing meant losing everything. This is no different. Russia attacking Ukraine is no different. No one is tracing and counting every bullet Russia fires and certainly no world court is saying anything at all to Russia… or to Turkey, or Iran, or Syria, or anyone else… except for Israel. Gaza attacked Israel and like any nation that goes to war, they will either win or lose. Consider carefully before declaring war against your enemy…. Everything is at stake.

gizmo 3y ago
You're right that the violence and devastation Israel has laid upon Gaza has historic precedence. Genghis Khan completely destroyed cities that he considered cultural enemies, to give one example. You'll find many instances of genocide in the history books, even post WW2. Israel is not unique in that regard either. But why does it matter? Does historical barbarity justify present day barbarity? It doesn't, and we all know it doesn't. It's not the case that Israel is held to a higher standard. Russia has been widely condemned, blocked from international finance, and faces severe sanctions. On top of that, western countries have given substantial military and intelligence aid to Ukraine. Russia had reasons for their invasion of Ukraine (just like Israel has its reasons), but so what? Russia being angry at Ukraine is not a justification for destroying the country. I also take issue with your characterization that Gaza "started it". This is a 70+ year conflict with many chapters of violence in it, and innocent Palestinians make up the bulk of the casualties. Israel is not the victim here. Finally, it's not accurate to talk about Israel/Gaza as two nations at war. Israel controls everything coming in and going out of Gaza, electricity, water, etc. Palestine is not an independent country or a state, it's part of Israel except its citizens have no rights.
- throwaway331337 3y ago
  [flagged]
underlipton 3y ago
>Since when has war ever been tit-for-tat. Since we had a global war which almost destroyed civilization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law)#International_humanitarian_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law)#Internat...